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Other/Mixed Heart Rate for Aerobic Training

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
I am unable to relocate the thread I was reading a few minutes ago that mentions this article by @Al Ciampa:


This bit caught my eye

strongfirst.com/simple-sinister-heart-rate-monitor/ said:
Whatever your target HR, you must not exceed this during your session.

So, 180 – your age + 5 = target HR.

I'm 66 years young. 180 - 66 + 5 = 119 if I did that right.

strongfirst.com/simple-sinister-heart-rate-monitor/ said:
Next, you will notice that when you perform your swings, your HR will spike somewhere between 5-15 seconds after you complete your set, and may or may not linger around this value. This is the task: ensure that these spikes do not exceed your target HR.

I'm curious to know if this is still our thinking on the subject. I remain fascinated, and relatively ignorant, on the subject of heart rate.

strongfirst.com/simple-sinister-heart-rate-monitor/ said:
There are many external factors that can affect your HR values: heat, humidity, hydration level, medications, illness, stress level, sleep, etc.
This is one of two places where the math becomes interesting for me. Again, please take these as the observations of a uneducated person on this subject, but they are my real-life experience. BTW, I'm asking all these questions today because I've been wearing my HR monitor a lot more lately while swinging a kettlebell, and I've also been swinging a kettlebell more lately.

When I look at the HRM after I put it on, it's often in the 80's, sometimes 70's, depending on what I've been doing, e.g., if I've been moving around the heavy kettlebell to clear space before I swing, it might be higher.

But my mental state is very much a factor in where my HR starts. If I'm getting psyched/excited, my HR is often in the 90's or low 100's, and generally higher in advance of a session of 2h swings than of 1h swings.

Last week, when I was getting ready to do my first session of 2h swings with my new 64 kg bell, it was 122 before I touched the kettlebell. That's higher than the 119 value I got from the formula and I hadn't even started yet.

My typical swing sessions are done with varying rest periods, usually 2-4 sets on relatively short rest and then a longer rest - think the Q&D model. I tend to have an average HR around 130, usually maxing around 145-150 and seeing a low point of around 105-110 before I start the next series of sets.

I feel like I ask these kinds of questions every year or two whether I need it or not. Maybe my birthdate on my driver's license is wrong? :) My max HR, taken once when I tried to max it out but very informally, was 180, and I'm guessing it's higher than that.

-S-
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
I'm 66 years young. 180 - 66 + 5 = 119 if I did that right.
This is the so-called MAF calculation and for many (maybe even most) purposes it will coincide with a persons AeT (Aerobic Threshold) This being the ‘zone’ where LED type training should occur. If you can also pass the ‘talk test’ at this point then you are probably as close as you need to be.
However… if you really want to know exactly where your AeT is then the only way to do that is by measuring it. Usually either by a blood lactate test or a gas exchange test.
A blood-lactate concentration of about 2mmol/L is indicative of AeT

(AeT is the upper most intensity of training where the production of ATP starts to be dominated by glycolysis as opposed to fat oxidation.)

This is the most important zone for training that is used in developing aerobic capacity.

Reading TFTNA and TFTUA will give a greater understanding of all of this heart rate training.
 

Tjerr

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
I was very interested in this a couple of weeks ago, but there has been a later post on the forum by @Al Ciampa himself, saying that he doesn't like to use the heartrate anymore. Edit: This one

I did do my S&S (1.0) by this thread a couple of years ago, for a month or 3. Then I sub-dislocated my shoulder and went on to something new. Worked fine for the swings part, but the Get Up always seems to spike higher.
 

Don Fairbanks

SFG II
Certified Instructor
What @offwidth said. IMO the 180 - age +/- works very well for most folks, simple, no need for a lab.
Steve, might be interesting for you to partake in a treadmill/bike stress test with blood draws.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
What @offwidth said. IMO the 180 - age +/- works very well for most folks, simple, no need for a lab.
Steve, might be interesting for you to partake in a treadmill/bike stress test with blood draws.
Yes, but the trouble is that I'd have to pay for it as there is no medical justification for it.

(Reminds me of a similar conversation I had with my back specialist in 2012, on the 15th anniversary of my 1997 back injury. Long story short, he said, "What you do every day is what we prescribe as therapy, your arthritic hip has 15 degrees less motion than your other one but even your bad one is way above what we consider acceptable, so no medical workup for you." I asked him if it was OK if I came back in another 15 years, and he said that would be OK, and that was that.)

Any idea what it would cost to have the test with blood draws done if I had to pay for it myself? I have no clue.

-S-
 

wespom9

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
@Steve Freides Training for the New Alpinism, or the newer Training for the Uphill Athlete. I don't own either, but mentioned many times here as great resources for endurance athletes, both in practical respects and the physiology and bioenergetics.

As far as I remember from threads, neither Al nor much of the leadership recommend following HR during ballistics, or sticking to certain thresholds to start/stop sets.
 

barrak

Level 6 Valued Member
I am unable to relocate the thread I was reading a few minutes ago that mentions this article by @Al Ciampa:


This bit caught my eye



I'm 66 years young. 180 - 66 + 5 = 119 if I did that right.



I'm curious to know if this is still our thinking on the subject. I remain fascinated, and relatively ignorant, on the subject of heart rate.


This is one of two places where the math becomes interesting for me. Again, please take these as the observations of a uneducated person on this subject, but they are my real-life experience. BTW, I'm asking all these questions today because I've been wearing my HR monitor a lot more lately while swinging a kettlebell, and I've also been swinging a kettlebell more lately.

When I look at the HRM after I put it on, it's often in the 80's, sometimes 70's, depending on what I've been doing, e.g., if I've been moving around the heavy kettlebell to clear space before I swing, it might be higher.

But my mental state is very much a factor in where my HR starts. If I'm getting psyched/excited, my HR is often in the 90's or low 100's, and generally higher in advance of a session of 2h swings than of 1h swings.

Last week, when I was getting ready to do my first session of 2h swings with my new 64 kg bell, it was 122 before I touched the kettlebell. That's higher than the 119 value I got from the formula and I hadn't even started yet.

My typical swing sessions are done with varying rest periods, usually 2-4 sets on relatively short rest and then a longer rest - think the Q&D model. I tend to have an average HR around 130, usually maxing around 145-150 and seeing a low point of around 105-110 before I start the next series of sets.

I feel like I ask these kinds of questions every year or two whether I need it or not. Maybe my birthdate on my driver's license is wrong? :) My max HR, taken once when I tried to max it out but very informally, was 180, and I'm guessing it's higher than that.

-S-

The MAF formula works fine most times, though I've seen some younger athletes where it gave them targets beyond their zone 2.

More importantly, MAF HR training is meant for steady activity. S&S's swings are about power production and they are meant to hit the anaerobic range or thereabouts. Same goes for Q&D, ROP, Giant, ...etc.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
More importantly, MAF HR training is meant for steady activity. S&S's swings are about power production and they are meant to hit the anaerobic range or thereabouts. Same goes for Q&D, ROP, Giant, ...etc.
My chart, using the Polar H10's included app, shows basically alternating between zone 2 and zone 4, so that makes sense.

I tend to use the Q&D model so, e.g., I'll do 2 sets of 10 on the minute, then watch the app for an indication of when to start the next series. I started doing these for my 100 reps of swings, a new series every 4:00, and am experimenting with gradually lowering the time between series as a way of improving, sort of a S&S/Q&D combination of attributes, the Q&D part substituting for the talk test, and hopefully the 2 sets close together and then longer rest having some of Q&D's benefits.

-S-
 

LarryB

Level 5 Valued Member
The MAF formula works fine most times, though I've seen some younger athletes where it gave them targets beyond their zone 2.

More importantly, MAF HR training is meant for steady activity. S&S's swings are about power production and they are meant to hit the anaerobic range or thereabouts. Same goes for Q&D, ROP, Giant, ...etc.
I agree, just relistened to Al on the Strongfirst podcast since I’m running one of his programs. To me the only aerobic work going on is when the bell is down and you are recovering/restoring depleted atp. So I feel that Steve passing the talk test, and/or waiting for his hr to drop back down is more than adequate. Al even said in the pod that he regrets ever having used the maf at all with kettlebells.
 

Ryan T

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
@Steve Freides I think Al’s views have changed somewhat on this. Still generous rest between sets with talk test as your guide. The HR comes more into play for formal aerobic endurance work (which should always be done).

If you’d like to talk to him, I’m sure you have his email, however you should have access to the Be Well And Strong and you’ll more easily catch up with him there either by PM or you can post your question in the PT Discussion section. You have access; let me know if you need a password change.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@Ryan T, I've been thinking about paying a visit over there; I know Al has invited me. Life is just a little too busy for me right now to add even one more thing, but this is on my list, for sure.

The HR thing is interesting for me in relative terms; as I indicated above, the absolute numbers make no sense to me, but I did a session yesterday that took 2 minute less than it took a week ago to accomplish the same work with the same HR profile, so that's progress and I think it's a useful way to put the HR monitor to work.

-S-
 

Ryan T

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
@Ryan T, I've been thinking about paying a visit over there; I know Al has invited me. Life is just a little too busy for me right now to add even one more thing, but this is on my list, for sure.

The HR thing is interesting for me in relative terms; as I indicated above, the absolute numbers make no sense to me, but I did a session yesterday that took 2 minute less than it took a week ago to accomplish the same work with the same HR profile, so that's progress and I think it's a useful way to put the HR monitor to work.

-S-
That’s an interesting observation. I know in general when we discuss A+A snatching protocols on BWAS, Al usually suggests we just check our HR for bench marks every so often 3, 6, 12 months etc… but it’s unnecessary to use on a regular basis for power work. Talk test and power production are emphasized.

The drop in HR might also be from general efficiency adaptations as you progress in your ability to swing the heavier bell too. Pure speculation here.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
Yes, but the trouble is that I'd have to pay for it as there is no medical justification for it.

(Reminds me of a similar conversation I had with my back specialist in 2012, on the 15th anniversary of my 1997 back injury. Long story short, he said, "What you do every day is what we prescribe as therapy, your arthritic hip has 15 degrees less motion than your other one but even your bad one is way above what we consider acceptable, so no medical workup for you." I asked him if it was OK if I came back in another 15 years, and he said that would be OK, and that was that.)

Any idea what it would cost to have the test with blood draws done if I had to pay for it myself? I have no clue.

-S-
$150.00 give or take.
Or you can purchase your own tester for about $350.00 +/- and then it’s only the cost of test strips after that.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Well, for $150, maybe I'll get it done. (Maybe after we recover from the new roof we just put on the house ... but still worth considering at that price.)

-S-
 

LarryB

Level 5 Valued Member
$150.00 give or take.
Or you can purchase your own tester for about $350.00 +/- and then it’s only the cost of test strips after that.
That’s not a bad investment on the device. Is the ciampa forum for paying members only? I’ve always wanted to check that out.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
Well, for $150, maybe I'll get it done. (Maybe after we recover from the new roof we just put on the house ... but still worth considering at that price.)

-S-
Look for people that train and coach cyclists, runners, and triathletes. Often times these folks offer lactate testing. You will be required to run or cycle as a part of the test obviously.
 

barrak

Level 6 Valued Member
$150.00 give or take.
Or you can purchase your own tester for about $350.00 +/- and then it’s only the cost of test strips after that.

Super! My boy will need to do several of those over the next year as he ramps up his training to improve his times before college. I'm interested in knowing mine as well, so the home tester will be cost effective for us.

Thanks.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
That’s not a bad investment on the device. Is the ciampa forum for paying members only? I’ve always wanted to check that out.

Often times what people (usually clubs) will do is go in on the cost of a tester for the groups use. It does however take some amount of skill and training to interpret the results.

Yes BWAS is a paid forum.
 

barrak

Level 6 Valued Member
Well, for $150, maybe I'll get it done. (Maybe after we recover from the new roof we just put on the house ... but still worth considering at that price.)

-S-

Be aware that lactate threshold is a moving target... gets higher with dedicated training. Elite athletes test it multiple times to reset their HR training zones as they cycle from off-season to build to maintenance phases.
 
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