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Kettlebell heart rate training

stevein7

Level 4 Valued Member
Ok, so there are quite a few kbell protocols out there. You can google kettlebell complexes, kettlebell programmes and get a lot of variety. You can get entire programmes based on 2 movements, 3, 4, 5... So I have been thinking, what is the reality here. Are there really any secret programmes you need to spend a lot of money on or can you just make up your own? Lets say I choose a pool of movements, just the basics, swings, snatch, clean and press, kettlebell squats. Let's say I train between 20 minutes and an hour, seems reasonable. Lets say I train 3-6 days a week. Lets say I train by heart rate monitor, never go below zone 2, but no upper limit. Can I just do what the heck I want within such parameters and get a good result?
 
I believe that you will, by trial and error. Depending on your training experience, the coaching you have received, and if you have already experimented with your own programming, you may very well make excellent progress.

After following programs, I had a period where I did exactly what you proposed. I recorded everything I did, but it was mainly kettlebell Clean & Press, swings, snatches, and pullups. That set me up for a very successful 5/3/1 deadlift cycle.

More recently, a couple years of mainly A&A snatching the 32kg (40~50 repeats of 5) going off of heartrate set me up for some very successful rucking. I toted my 24kg GORUCK for 23 days straight, averaging over 7 miles a day this past December. I went from 5 miles being a chore to a couple of 11 milers with not much problem. I'm 59 years old, so there's no "kid power' there...

As with A&A, I monitor and "play" my heartrate while rucking.

As far as programs, you get what you pay for. I have bought several of @Geoff Neupert 's programs that I have used with terrific results. Geoff has put a lot of time, effort, trial and error into his programs. The results speak for themselves. In the next few months I'll be choosing a Neupert program and "mining" it for a few months. You simply can't go wrong with Geoff's stuff.
 
To Piggyback off of @WxHerk -

I will say, after reading and trying S&S and Q&D and Strong Endurance and PttP, - I am partially under the impression that the best stuff for the broadest audience has been published at some of the lowest prices. and some of the higher-priced stuff I see as being more important for more specific goals. Maybe, I'll call it more narrowly tailored with more specific adaptations/goals in mind.

having invested both my time and money for the past few years into including this stuff as a daily and weekly part of my life, I have come back to an initial position that I self-diagnose as being both correct and unhelpful to my pre-strong-first self(i remember hearing this and thinking - that doesn't help me to diagnose what I should and should not do or try). and that statement is: Adherence is the only primary metric of value in program selection.

there are many secondary and tertiary interests to be addressed in selecting a program. but consistency is still the king. if you find free programs (of which there are so many) that are compatible with consistency in your training, offer some waviness in the load, and are in that money range of both being challenging and doable; then you've got it, already. then, maybe, no money needs to change hands.

I find that having paid for a great number of programming materials from StrongFirst Affiliated sources, there is a degree of seriousness about paid material that I would compare with the flashiness of free ones. in order to garner my attention many free programs or routines have many facets to them. chains, complexes and otherwise. they seem to me to possibly lean in the direction of getting me moving around but not exactly going anywhere, especially if I get the loading wrong(which is often left out, for me to divine).

so I offer that the paid stuff I've experienced is more concerned with purposefully manipulating Loading. the free stuff I've encountered largely employs a purposeful puzzle-pieced assembly of movements. CAVEAT: the stuff in the newsletter, I've gotten, is worth its weight in gold. And the articles on StrongFirst are actually an outsized offering of free effective programs, which I believe is way undervalued and underutilized ( i count myself in this. There are so many perfect 4-6 week programs in my inbox that I've yet to employ, and they are sound and purposeful. really a great resource.)

that said - there is actually a lot of great info to be found on Instagram.
Kettlebell Aerobics
EricDoesKettlebell
JeffSokol
and none other than @Brett Jones
among others.
they all have basically excellent public training logs from which there is much to glean and learn.

and, I'll echo, @Geoff Neupert materials are a standout, in this area. His programs are terribly effective. almost predictably so.

I hope that you find this to be helpful.

Lets say I train by heart rate monitor, never go below zone 2, but no upper limit. Can I just do what the heck I want within such parameters and get a good result?

but to answer this question more directly - kinda.
as the silly answer goes, it depends.
I would say that if you're going to bounce around up above zone 2, you might find that you need a bit more rest. maybe wait till you're closer to the bottom of MAF zone 2, till you start something that's really dense. but if you're doing something in short duration, or low in intensity, maybe try and keep it within the zone 2 window.

exiting zone 2 to above ranges of performance seems like setting yourself up to collide with a stop sign, in your workout; and maybe inducing an acid bath depending on the loading.

rest between your exertions at least enough to be able to say that your last set was of the same caliber of speed and stability of form, and I think that'll be a good guardrail to use. but the idea of never dropping into MAF zone 2 heart rates during the work out seems like something that should be kept in as a side dish maybe 1xweek to 1xmonth. it sounds kinda heavy.
 
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Can I just do what the heck I want within such parameters and get a good result?
Are there really any secret programmes you need to spend a lot of money on or can you just make up your own?
There are no secret programs. What you pay for (hopefully) is something constructed by someone who knows a little (or a lot) more than you to get you closer to a goal. For instance, @Brett Jones 's product "Iron Cardio" is similar to what you describe. He gives you guard rails to work within and then you play and experiment and get results. Good results. You're paying a nominal fee for someone with decades of experience to provide you the template and the guard rails. There's no secret squirrel sauce, just guidelines.

LmpwZw


You can experiment and play and develop your own guidelines. With trial and error (and copious amounts of consistency and time) you can develop your own guidelines that are perfect for what you're trying to achieve.

A couple things to keep in mind?
1. Do you have specific goals and are they time-bound? Example - I want to bench 275 by Oct 2023 vs. I want to get stronger and leaner. The more specific your goals and the more time-bound they are, the more you need a specific program.
2. Are you training progressively? If you just "do stuff" with a 16kg for a while ... are you now doing more "stuff," or are you now using a 20kg? If you aren't progressing, you may just be spinning your wheels and not getting stronger/fitter/leaner/etc. How much does that matter to you?
3. Are you only doing things you like/are good at? Or are you actually doing things you don't like/you suck at? I LOVE getting stronger. I like heavy (and heavier) weights. I don't like huffing and puffing. Over years this created a HUGE hole in my training. On the flip side, maybe you don't like straining and are "comfortable" doing hundreds of reps with a 12kg in a circuit. You might have great stamina - until things get heavy.

Buying a program - or hiring a trainer - you are paying for their expertise. When I committed to getting my SFG1, there was a LOT of money on the line, and I worked with @Ryan Toshner to make sure I was up to SFG1 movement standards, and together he and I sketched out guardrails to stay within in order to get to, thru, and after SFG1. There was no secret squirrel sauce, just a tried and tested framework. He had been there (passing the snatch test) time and time again, and he knew exactly how to train for it. Could I have figured something out? Sure, especially with all the free programs StrongFirst has on their website. But I also didn't want to risk failure, so it was "worth it" to pay for that expertise, and worth it to pay for someone to work WITH me as I was also working through two different issues at the time that a "writ in stone" program didn't work around.

All that to say - you can roll your own, there are no secrets, and sometimes it is worth the price. At the same time, sometimes it is better to get directions if you're a complete novice as it will save a lot of stumbling and flailing around - which means more progress and less problems (or injuries)!
 
Lets say I choose a pool of movements, just the basics, swings, snatch, clean and press, kettlebell squats. Let's say I train between 20 minutes and an hour, seems reasonable. Lets say I train 3-6 days a week.
In his original RKC book, Pavel has a list of guidelines similar to this idea (check your PMs).

As others have said, what you get with a specific program, whether paid or not, is something proven effective for its intended purpose, based on knowledge and experience. It can cut out a lot of the trial and error learning curve. It's also very liberating to not have to think about the programming and just focus on doing the work.

BTW, I have never found heart rate to be particularly useful for KB training.
 
To Piggyback off of @WxHerk -

I will say, after reading and trying S&S and Q&D and Strong Endurance and PttP, - I am partially under the impression that the best stuff for the broadest audience has been published at some of the lowest prices. and some of the higher-priced stuff I see as being more important for more specific goals. Maybe, I'll call it more narrowly tailored with more specific adaptations/goals in mind.

having invested both my time and money for the past few years into including this stuff as a daily and weekly part of my life, I have come back to an initial position that I self-diagnose as being both correct and unhelpful to my pre-strong-first self(i remember hearing this and thinking - that doesn't help me to diagnose what I should and should not do or try). and that statement is: Adherence is the only primary metric of value in program selection.

there are many secondary and tertiary interests to be addressed in selecting a program. but consistency is still the king. if you find free programs (of which there are so many) that are compatible with consistency in your training, offer some waviness in the load, and are in that money range of both being challenging and doable; then you've got it, already. then, maybe, no money needs to change hands.

I find that having paid for a great number of programming materials from StrongFirst Affiliated sources, there is a degree of seriousness about paid material that I would compare with the flashiness of free ones. in order to garner my attention many free programs or routines have many facets to them. chains, complexes and otherwise. they seem to me to possibly lean in the direction of getting me moving around but not exactly going anywhere, especially if I get the loading wrong(which is often left out, for me to divine).

so I offer that the paid stuff I've experienced is more concerned with purposefully manipulating Loading. the free stuff I've encountered largely employs a purposeful puzzle-pieced assembly of movements. CAVEAT: the stuff in the newsletter, I've gotten, is worth its weight in gold. And the articles on StrongFirst are actually an outsized offering of free effective programs, which I believe is way undervalued and underutilized ( i count myself in this. There are so many perfect 4-6 week programs in my inbox that I've yet to employ, and they are sound and purposeful. really a great resource.)

that said - there is actually a lot of great info to be found on Instagram.
Kettlebell Aerobics
EricDoesKettlebell
JeffSokol
and none other than @Brett Jones
among others.
they all have basically excellent public training logs from which there is much to glean and learn.

and, I'll echo, @Geoff Neupert materials are a standout, in this area. His programs are terribly effective. almost predictably so.

I hope that you find this to be helpful.



but to answer this question more directly - kinda.
as the silly answer goes, it depends.
I would say that if you're going to bounce around up above zone 2, you might find that you need a bit more rest. maybe wait till you're closer to the bottom of MAF zone 2, till you start something that's really dense. but if you're doing something in short duration, or low in intensity, maybe try and keep it within the zone 2 window.

exiting zone 2 to above ranges of performance seems like setting yourself up to collide with a stop sign, in your workout; and maybe inducing an acid bath depending on the loading.

rest between your exertions at least enough to be able to say that your last set was of the same caliber of speed and stability of form, and I think that'll be a good guardrail to use. but the idea of never dropping into MAF zone 2 heart rates during the work out seems like something that should be kept in as a side dish maybe 1xweek to 1xmonth. it sounds kinda heavy.
Not exactly sure if we are understanding each other, when I say not below zone 2, that means it is fine to be IN zone2. I am currently doing this - Day 1 - Kbells Day 2 90 mins maffetone jog/walk. Repeat. I am not sure if I need a day off, but so far it is 7 days a week. The kbells are generally something like iron cardio. I do approx 5 reps clean/press/swing/snatch/squat sometimes 1 bell sometimes double. Sometimes its clean press squat snatch swing (5 reps), sometimes its a cuplet, sometimes its just 5 swings, 5 snatches etc. I go by heart rate, I wait till the heart rate hits the bottom end of my MAF numbers. (113 for me). Generally 5 reps will take me into the 130s/140s. Been hitting between 45 mins and 60 mins of this per session. My immediate goal is to extend the MAF jog /walk to 2 hours, I read good things happen around the 2 hour mark. That will happen within 2 weeks, no rush.
 
There are no secret programs. What you pay for (hopefully) is something constructed by someone who knows a little (or a lot) more than you to get you closer to a goal. For instance, @Brett Jones 's product "Iron Cardio" is similar to what you describe. He gives you guard rails to work within and then you play and experiment and get results. Good results. You're paying a nominal fee for someone with decades of experience to provide you the template and the guard rails. There's no secret squirrel sauce, just guidelines.

LmpwZw


You can experiment and play and develop your own guidelines. With trial and error (and copious amounts of consistency and time) you can develop your own guidelines that are perfect for what you're trying to achieve.

A couple things to keep in mind?
1. Do you have specific goals and are they time-bound? Example - I want to bench 275 by Oct 2023 vs. I want to get stronger and leaner. The more specific your goals and the more time-bound they are, the more you need a specific program.
2. Are you training progressively? If you just "do stuff" with a 16kg for a while ... are you now doing more "stuff," or are you now using a 20kg? If you aren't progressing, you may just be spinning your wheels and not getting stronger/fitter/leaner/etc. How much does that matter to you?
3. Are you only doing things you like/are good at? Or are you actually doing things you don't like/you suck at? I LOVE getting stronger. I like heavy (and heavier) weights. I don't like huffing and puffing. Over years this created a HUGE hole in my training. On the flip side, maybe you don't like straining and are "comfortable" doing hundreds of reps with a 12kg in a circuit. You might have great stamina - until things get heavy.

Buying a program - or hiring a trainer - you are paying for their expertise. When I committed to getting my SFG1, there was a LOT of money on the line, and I worked with @Ryan Toshner to make sure I was up to SFG1 movement standards, and together he and I sketched out guardrails to stay within in order to get to, thru, and after SFG1. There was no secret squirrel sauce, just a tried and tested framework. He had been there (passing the snatch test) time and time again, and he knew exactly how to train for it. Could I have figured something out? Sure, especially with all the free programs StrongFirst has on their website. But I also didn't want to risk failure, so it was "worth it" to pay for that expertise, and worth it to pay for someone to work WITH me as I was also working through two different issues at the time that a "writ in stone" program didn't work around.

All that to say - you can roll your own, there are no secrets, and sometimes it is worth the price. At the same time, sometimes it is better to get directions if you're a complete novice as it will save a lot of stumbling and flailing around - which means more progress and less problems (or injuries)!
Goals - more fitter/leaner than stronger. I am tightening up diet. Last meal at 6pm, eat again after training around 12 noon. A sort of vegan/fish combo. Likely I am going to have a go at my 5k pb which is low hanging fruit - 28 mins. So far am alternating kells and Maffetone jogging. At some point some interval training will appear. I am training progressively re the kbells, I keep records of the various sessions and basically pull one out and beat it. Working so far, likely because I am a bit of a kbell noob. Last time I tested my 2 hand swing I got 35 reps with 32kg. I can get 10 snatches with 24kg. Noob. the Maff joging is by time. I started with 60 mins per session, now am at 90, aiming for 120 soon, it is not easy, but it is doable. As for the heavy stuff - I am an ex powerlifter, I have totaled 600kg unequipped at 90kg, not bad if not special. At 57 I just seem to have a lot of creaky joints that seem to like light weight and endurance and like the idea of being cardio strong as te years accumulate.
 
Goals - more fitter/leaner than stronger. I am tightening up diet. Last meal at 6pm, eat again after training around 12 noon. A sort of vegan/fish combo. Likely I am going to have a go at my 5k pb which is low hanging fruit - 28 mins. So far am alternating kells and Maffetone jogging. At some point some interval training will appear. I am training progressively re the kbells, I keep records of the various sessions and basically pull one out and beat it. Working so far, likely because I am a bit of a kbell noob. Last time I tested my 2 hand swing I got 35 reps with 32kg. I can get 10 snatches with 24kg. Noob. the Maff joging is by time. I started with 60 mins per session, now am at 90, aiming for 120 soon, it is not easy, but it is doable. As for the heavy stuff - I am an ex powerlifter, I have totaled 600kg unequipped at 90kg, not bad if not special. At 57 I just seem to have a lot of creaky joints that seem to like light weight and endurance and like the idea of being cardio strong as te years accumulate.
If you are happy with the results, rock on dude!
 
Lets say I choose a pool of movements, just the basics, swings, snatch, clean and press, kettlebell squats. Let's say I train between 20 minutes and an hour, seems reasonable. Lets say I train 3-6 days a week.
There are plenty of programs in the articles section of this website that would meet your needs, and you wouldn't have to make them up, and you wouldn't have to pay for them, either, and furthermore you could discuss them on this forum. How's that for a win/win/win?

-S-
 
There are plenty of programs in the articles section of this website that would meet your needs, and you wouldn't have to make them up, and you wouldn't have to pay for them, either, and furthermore you could discuss them on this forum. How's that for a win/win/win?

-S-
One of my favorite quotes:
“If you need to ask advice about your own programming, you probably aren’t ready to do your own programming.”
 
One of my favorite quotes:
“If you need to ask advice about your own programming, you probably aren’t ready to do your own programming.”
OK, I am grateful for the responses. Critique this please....I think there are two basic paths for the NATURAL, one is big and a bit fluffy, the other is more shredded but smaller outcome. Both are good, Both require discipline, but you have to choose. I am choosing the more wiry outcome, calorie restriction, hopefully come out wth a decent 5k time, fatloss and keep the strength.
3 days a week are running. Mon and Fri are Maffetone jog/walk for 2 hours. Wednesday will be VO2 max training. I got a plan involving 8 sets of 30 second intervals, 15 second rest. Repeat 3 times with 5 minutes rest between each. So that is 24 x 30 second intervals. 12 mins all told.
2-4 days a week I will do weights. "If you wish to add Power to the People! or some other exercises to your kettlebell regimen you have a couple of choices. One is to plug your deadlifts into your kettlebell sessions and make them play by the same ten rules as long as you keep your reps to five and under. If you wish, you could add a couple of other exercises—one legged squats and pull-ups are Spetsnaz favorites—to your kettlebell regimen on the same terms." I think after a bit of mobility - the following. Fighter pull up programme. PTTP deads and ohp. Then kettlebells, starting with the Iron cardio sequence (clean press squat snatch) 10 - 30 mins. Finally if I have anything left - some swings, ab wheel.
This is just a plan on paper so far. I am unsure as to if it will be possible to incorporate all these elements, none of them are really my own, all are the invention of others. I think I have a good work capacity.
 
OK, I am grateful for the responses. Critique this please....I think there are two basic paths for the NATURAL, one is big and a bit fluffy, the other is more shredded but smaller outcome. Both are good, Both require discipline, but you have to choose. I am choosing the more wiry outcome, calorie restriction, hopefully come out wth a decent 5k time, fatloss and keep the strength.

There are no paths, you can bulk by eating clean, you can bulk by eating at mcdonalds everyday as you can either loose weight by just eating celery or just going on a carnivore diet. You can eat at maintenance with a good proportion of protein/fats/carbs from healthy sources and you will basically end up with a body recomposition without loosing any weight (lets say on the long term you will build up muscle and loose fat but your weight stays more or less the same) the thing here is to focus in support your daily activity and needs as you are 57 and sarcopenia is a fact as we age. My wife strongly disagrees with strong deficits diets above 40 to avoid ANY possible muscle loss during the process, she prepares plans just below their current maintenance changing the % of macro nutrients and keeps updating it till the goal is reached, but % muscle must improve and never diminish.

I don't know your current status but, considering starting from 0, If your goal is a 5km focus on that 3 day run schedule you programmed, start walking a lot and jogging a bit and increment it till you jog the 2 hours mark which btw will be much more than 5kms...get used to that workload and recover from it, you will loose weight during this process, this may take like 6 weeks? Keep mobility work every other day, no weights, just mobility and recover.

Now choose one single program and incorporate it into your stablished running schedule, but choose one this seems and feels a bit too much:
Fighter pull up programme. PTTP deads and ohp. Then kettlebells, starting with the Iron cardio sequence (clean press squat snatch) 10 - 30 mins. Finally if I have anything left - some swings, ab wheel

You prefer to do it otherwise? Choose the program and stick to it for 6 weeks, after that start incorporating your running program, which one? as @WxHerk (who btw is a BEAST) said:
As far as programs, you get what you pay for. I have bought several of @Geoff Neupert 's programs that I have used with terrific results.
You can't go wrong either by sticking to S&S till simple or PTTP.

You were a powerlifter, don't know how long ago, but if you start fresh again from 0 to 6 days with no rest incorporating running which goes hard on your knees and ankles I feel like its too much and a easy way to injure yourself somehow.
 
There are no paths, you can bulk by eating clean, you can bulk by eating at mcdonalds everyday as you can either loose weight by just eating celery or just going on a carnivore diet. You can eat at maintenance with a good proportion of protein/fats/carbs from healthy sources and you will basically end up with a body recomposition without loosing any weight (lets say on the long term you will build up muscle and loose fat but your weight stays more or less the same) the thing here is to focus in support your daily activity and needs as you are 57 and sarcopenia is a fact as we age. My wife strongly disagrees with strong deficits diets above 40 to avoid ANY possible muscle loss during the process, she prepares plans just below their current maintenance changing the % of macro nutrients and keeps updating it till the goal is reached, but % muscle must improve and never diminish.

I don't know your current status but, considering starting from 0, If your goal is a 5km focus on that 3 day run schedule you programmed, start walking a lot and jogging a bit and increment it till you jog the 2 hours mark which btw will be much more than 5kms...get used to that workload and recover from it, you will loose weight during this process, this may take like 6 weeks? Keep mobility work every other day, no weights, just mobility and recover.

Now choose one single program and incorporate it into your stablished running schedule, but choose one this seems and feels a bit too much:


You prefer to do it otherwise? Choose the program and stick to it for 6 weeks, after that start incorporating your running program, which one? as @WxHerk (who btw is a BEAST) said:

You can't go wrong either by sticking to S&S till simple or PTTP.

You were a powerlifter, don't know how long ago, but if you start fresh again from 0 to 6 days with no rest incorporating running which goes hard on your knees and ankles I feel like its too much and a easy way to injure yourself somehow.
Extensive reply. Sorry for not responding earlier. I get what you say about diet, when I spoke of paths I simply meant you can eat to gain, stay the same or lose weight. Vegan, carnivore, McDonalds ice cream, it makes little difference. I would say the only 2 points that matter are total calories and protein consumption. Maybe fine points about micronutrients, but let's face it, most people get by without paying any attention to them. As regards the training, I think you are right, what I had in mind is abit excessive. 3 days of runnig OK, good, just easy pace log runs/walks for the time being, maybe I wil only change this when I have a date for an attempt for a 5k PB sometime this year (not now, weather is not dependable, if it snows and ices over, fast running is a bad call, I am thinking May, before it gets hot). And 3 days a week a kettlebell routine and nothing more. I signed up for Geoff Neupert's email list and picked a programme he was giving a way - the Wolf. This is described as a fat burner complex so in line wth my goal of leaning out. Maybe not optimal pursuing PTTP whilst in a deficit, sure it will keep the muscle, but it seems to me that the Kbell complex ticks more boxes. So that is it for the moment, 3 maffetone runs, 3 kbell complexes, specifically Neupert , The wolf, which I think chimes pretty much exactly with what you wrote. I note that the wolf as a sort of hard medium easy structure, so I have matched my running to it. The day before the hard wolf day I run for 1 hour, before the medium day, 1.5 hours, before the easy day 2 hours. Cannot think of anything more to add...cheers.
 
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