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Kettlebell Heavy GU: Risk vs Reward (Was "Alactic + Aerobic")

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Hello,

In other words, there comes a point where "if the weight is this heavy, I wouldn't lift it overhead this way."
This is true, but in general, from the ground, would you lift with a straight arm over your head that way. Do not get me wrong I love the GU because it is functional up to a point (Simple more or less).

But from instinct, I would lift with the weight on my shoulder (so it would be possible to lift more that way than with a regular TGU).

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Hello,


This is true, but in general, from the ground, would you lift with a straight arm over your head that way. Do not get me wrong I love the GU because it is functional up to a point (Simple more or less).

But from instinct, I would lift with the weight on my shoulder (so it would be possible to lift more that way than with a regular TGU).

Kind regards,

Pet'

It's the from the ground to the shoulder / rack where the TGU makes the least bio-mechanical and functional sense.

The TGU lacks bi-lateral leg drive and use of the power position hip snap to get a weight to the rack position.

I can dead clean (no swing) a 40 kg kb straight to the rack position pretty easily by using triple extension.

I suspect anyone who practices power cleans can do the same.

Once you're standing with it in the rack position, do whatever you want to next -- bent press, push press, jerk -- to get it overhead.

In real life, I don't think anyone would get a heavy weight overhead the way a get up does -- pull it to the chest while lying down, press it, then stand up.

You stand up, pull it up, then get it over head.
 
For me, one issue is that no one knows all the secrets their body holds....My father was a safety engineer in aerospace for most of his career. His goal was to design systems so that the totally unexpected, almost impossible failure, was not catastrophic.
Even something as simple as an unexpected sneeze could be catastrophic when one is doing a TGU that is too heavy. While I try to keep my TGU challenging, I try to keep it at a level where I can deal with an unexpected muscle spasm or pain.
About 1 time out of 100 on an overhead lockout. if things don't line up exactly right it feels like the shoulder is about to dislocate, which causes all sorts of immediate problems in the stability chain.
TGU is applied physics, and sometimes physics means coping with things that are not stable.
I was considering the question of whether I should by the bell that is 4kg larger than my current largest. I think I'm good, and I'll focus on things like squat, deadlift, press, and pullups for overall strength, and maintain my current TGU.
Although the Simple and Sinister Revised & Updated edition makes an argument for big weight increases, it also admits on page 114 that Sinister is a goal for a select few readers. For many of the rest of us, we have to work out for ourselves what is a reasonable point to reach.
I've never dropped a bell, but if I get a sustained wobbly shoulder at any point during the get up, that shoulder is done for the day for me..... For me, I've learned when my fatigue signals are telling me the next move is going to be ugly -- it might not be technical failure, but, at a minimum, it will probably be form failure, not crisp.
For an advanced parkour practitioner or acrobat, knowing one’s fatigue signals well can make the the difference between being able to practice long-term and being set back by serious injury. It’s an important principle with the Turkish Get Up as well.
 
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Hello,

In real life, I don't think anyone would get a heavy weight overhead the way a get up does -- pull it to the chest while lying down, press it, then stand up.

You stand up, pull it up, then get it over head.
I agree. This is why I think that the Clean & Press or even the Clean & Jerk are very "real world strength" moves. They tend to mimic what we - at least me - would do to put something overhead.

Of course, I am not saying that the GU is not a useful move. It has some nice applications, among other:
- coordination
- blend of strength and mobility and flexibility
- overall strength maintenance

This is why I really like programs like RoP. The only drawback I see in it is that it implies a "peak. Plus, H/L/M makes it harder to program regarding other activities. 5 ladders of 5 is huge. It requires plenty of time to perform, plenty of time to recover. IMO, you'd better be sure not having something too demanding the same day !

If we consider Simple as a "park bench" for GPP, I think a "linear" RoP would also work. For instance, from 25 to 30 C&P per side a day, done very aerobically may also be "real world oriented" and very sustainable.

Although the Simple and Sinister Revised & Updated edition makes an argument for big weight increases, it also admits on page 114 that Sinister is a goal for a select few readers. For many of the rest of us, we have to work out for ourselves what is a reasonable point to reach.
+1
I noticed that Simple is able to more or less maintain most of my abilities without having me to consider recovery. Performing it day in day out gets the job done. Of course, it will never provide me a "peak" for anything (meet, etc...) but it will give me a base to build upon. Most of the time, this is pretty easy to build whatever we want, based on Simple.

For an advanced parkour practitioner or acrobat, knowing one’s fatigue signals well can make the the difference between being able to practice long-term and being set back by serious injury.
+1 as well.
This morning, I did 15 GU instead of 5. As fatigue comes up, you clearly see what your weak points are. Therefore, to a certain extent, it also force us to "push" our focus.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I'm currently doing bent press clusters, these work very well (I'm finding). At the moment I'm not waving the volume , just pumping out 1rx5x4 40kg 3-5 times a week. I may wave the volume in the future.
 
For instance, from 25 to 30 C&P per side a day, done very aerobically may also be "real world oriented" and very sustainable.

That much pressing volume, daily, certainly wouldn't be sustainable for me!

Unless I was using very sub-maximal weights, at which point I'd ask, 'why bother'?

My shoulders aren't my hips.

3 x a week heavy pressing is plenty for me. On the other days, I do other planes of motion for my shoulders -- bodyweight, Indian clubs, resistance bands, maces, etc.
 
Hello,

That much pressing volume, daily, certainly wouldn't be sustainable for me!
I was not very accurate. Here, I'd say that we could do let say 120 presses (as we consider 100 to be the "minimal" dose to get real progress), with a daily split over the week. For instance, if we train 6 days a week, it would be "only" 20 C&P a day. The volume would be submaximal but the frequency is higher", like S&S.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
The term "heavy" is tough to define, as is "strong". I will say this, a few years back I focused on get-ups only for a month. My objective was to do 500 TGUs over the course of a 30 day period, so 16-18 per day, using the 32, 40 and 48. Not a ton of volume, but still a focused effort on a specific movement. Spending time doing "heavy" get-ups is educational, it requires absolute focus while performing static holds within a dynamic setting. The 48 was heavy for me, I couldn't do more than 5 per side, or a total of ten, without feeling a little wobbly, so I typically did 3 per side and then filled in the rest of the reps with the 32 or the 40. After I finished the challenge I kept up the TGU practice through S&S, starting with 32. Within a couple of weeks of completing the 500 rep getup month I was on the lacrosse field, playing a summertime fun pickup game with the kids I coach, barefoot in the grass, just having fun, the ball came sailing at me well over me head, my body just leaped up extended my stick as high as I could, grabbed the ball, did an almost 360 spin in the process, landed on one foot and went into an immediate sprint towards the goal. I was 51 at the time. I didnt feel like I was in great shape, I had no intention of making that move, but the focus on the "heavy" get-ups had created such a strong foundation of functional strength that I didnt have any feeling of holding back. My body just did what it had to do, automatically, to make the play. It was a sense of freedom I hadn't felt since my teens. My feeling is that if you want to get really strong, so you can pick up cars or carry small homes on your back, then deadlifts and squats are the way to go, but for functional strength I think "heavy" getups are un-paralleled. I love snatches too, for fully body functionality, but I never tore my hands to shreds doing get-ups. Heavy TGU's, I'm a fan.
 
The term "heavy" is tough to define, as is "strong". I will say this, a few years back I focused on get-ups only for a month. My objective was to do 500 TGUs over the course of a 30 day period, so 16-18 per day, using the 32, 40 and 48. Not a ton of volume, but still a focused effort on a specific movement. Spending time doing "heavy" get-ups is educational, it requires absolute focus while performing static holds within a dynamic setting. The 48 was heavy for me, I couldn't do more than 5 per side, or a total of ten, without feeling a little wobbly, so I typically did 3 per side and then filled in the rest of the reps with the 32 or the 40. After I finished the challenge I kept up the TGU practice through S&S, starting with 32. Within a couple of weeks of completing the 500 rep getup month I was on the lacrosse field, playing a summertime fun pickup game with the kids I coach, barefoot in the grass, just having fun, the ball came sailing at me well over me head, my body just leaped up extended my stick as high as I could, grabbed the ball, did an almost 360 spin in the process, landed on one foot and went into an immediate sprint towards the goal. I was 51 at the time. I didnt feel like I was in great shape, I had no intention of making that move, but the focus on the "heavy" get-ups had created such a strong foundation of functional strength that I didnt have any feeling of holding back. My body just did what it had to do, automatically, to make the play. It was a sense of freedom I hadn't felt since my teens. My feeling is that if you want to get really strong, so you can pick up cars or carry small homes on your back, then deadlifts and squats are the way to go, but for functional strength I think "heavy" getups are un-paralleled. I love snatches too, for fully body functionality, but I never tore my hands to shreds doing get-ups. Heavy TGU's, I'm a fan.
I like that challenge idea.
 
Hello,

Sometimes, when I have time, I enjoy doing more than 5 GU per side. It can go up to 15. Between each repetition, I like to introduce another strength move to work on a specific topic or weakness. For example, after each get up, a OA push up or a pistol.

This kind of sessions because they create a "flow". Plus, because time is not a real constraint, we can rest as needed so the 15th repetition has to be as good as the 1st one. It permits to focus on the drill. Because we have time, we do not rush anything. We use a weight we are comfortable with: light enough to get to the X th repetition, but heavy enough to get good feedback.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I train TGU twice a week, one day 12-14 "heavy" get-ups after 4-6 light as warm-up, and one day "volume", which is ~30 with medium weight. Sometimes there were challenging exceptions, like 50 get-ups with 32 kg or 100 get-ups with 22 kg (pure cardio per se). I just love this move.
 
Last June, at age 55, I pr'd my press at 44kg and hit a 48kg TGU. This was just after a six month deployment where the heaviest KB I had was 36kg. At least 3 TGUs per side ~5X a week with that bell and a ton of A&A snatches with the 32kg and occasional 36kg were the bulk of my training for that entire six months.
Hey @WxHerk , this is impressive work! What program were you following for daily A+A snatch volume? Or were you freestyling and coming up with volume by feel or maybe a dice roll?
 
Hey @WxHerk , this is impressive work! What program were you following for daily A+A snatch volume? Or were you freestyling and coming up with volume by feel or maybe a dice roll?
Hey, Sean! I usually snatch for an hour. Funny you brought this up. I am just at my work computer (don't tell anyone!) before showering from an A&A session. Today my target was 50 repeats of 5, it took just under 1:06. I usually hit 50 repeats in 59~61 minutes. Unless I have a specific time crunch or rep goal, I snatch for an hour. I have gone longer if I am wanting a certain number of repeats or I know that I won't train for the next day or two.

A&A snatching has proven to be my fountain of youth. It has made an enormous difference in my training. All the credit goes to Al Ciampa, who is a personal friend and Harald Motz, who is another friend with whom I spent time on the aforementioned deployment to Germany.
 
Firstly, let me just say that this is a great post. A lot of valuable information stored here. I obviously was curious about this risk vs reward as well, especially because I have a mild wrist pain when I do TGUs now. So intentionally I have been restricting the load I put on the wrist. But this also got me thinking about how S&S is structured and how I’ve been increasing my TGU loads. I think the gradual progress via S&S preps the body to take on more load over time. Another element that I missed when I hit the 32kg 10x1 TGUs OTM, my heart rate was hitting close to 160-170bpm. So I was pushing it. But I shouldn’t be. And I am guessing injuries happen in those scenarios….luckily it didnt happen to me then. Since, I’ve come to realise that and have reduced my working TGU weight. I do it with a 24kg bell now and put in 28kg bell into the reps. Slowly, maybe over a few weeks or months I will make that 28kg KB my own and then proceed to 32kg. In the process I have to build up my wrist strength and grip strength to make 32 feel like my 24 now. I can get up and not get warmed up and do 10 TGUs OTM.
 
I have a mild wrist pain when I do TGUs now.
Fabio, in his new online pressing course, Victorious, talks a lot about how to position the hand within the bell's handle and what to do with the wrist. These things have both made a huge difference for me - I used to get a slight sprain of one wrist until I adopted these techniques, and I am using them in other places as well, e.g., pullups. I highly recommend this course. See this post for more and a link:


-S-
 
Fabio, in his new online pressing course, Victorious, talks a lot about how to position the hand within the bell's handle and what to do with the wrist. These things have both made a huge difference for me - I used to get a slight sprain of one wrist until I adopted these techniques, and I am using them in other places as well, e.g., pullups. I highly recommend this course. See this post for more and a link:


-S-
I have gone through this course but with your suggestion will review it once again and adopt the practices. But thanks a lot for pointing me in this direction.
 
I have gone through this course but with your suggestion will review it once again and adopt the practices. But thanks a lot for pointing me in this direction.
In particular, when you grab the kettlebell for your getup and are getting ready to press it from your chest, try using Fabio's cues for where to put your hand in the handle and also the "ulnar deviation" he talks about.

-S-
 
In particular, when you grab the kettlebell for your getup and are getting ready to press it from your chest, try using Fabio's cues for where to put your hand in the handle and also the "ulnar deviation" he talks about.

-S-
I was doing the first two cues but forgot about this. Let me see how it feels when I try this tomorrow. Good to rewatch the entire course tomorrow.
 
@Steve Freides - a quick update. I went through the Victorious videos once again and today I ran a 28kg TGU 10x1 OTM, and my wrist feels great. I was apprehensive initially to load it but I mentally forced myself to follow the cues and post the session I feel no pain. I was very comfortable doing the TGUs throughout. Thanks for helping me fix this. Much appreciated !
 
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