Kettlebell Heavy GU: Risk vs Reward (Was "Alactic + Aerobic")

[pet']

Hello,

Personally I feel I get 90% of the benefit doing them with a sandbag - if anything the core component is even more effective, but it completely lacks the overhead tension of the kb TGU.

This is true. But in this case, do you use a heavier weight with the sandbag GU than with the kb GU ?

I never tried this, but I would imagine that heavy sandbag GU (meaning heavier than kb GU) done for 1-5 reps (like kb GU) and a cluster with heavy OVH press would get the job done. This combination of two moves - or even three because one would have to rack the bell so there would be a clean) - may be safer.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Gepet]

How does one decide what a "heavy" weight is? Would that be the weights for the simple standard?

 

[Anna C]

How does one decide what a "heavy" weight is? Would that be the weights for the simple standard?

I would say the next weight up from Simple standard, at least +4kg.

 

[Papa Georgio]

How does one decide what a "heavy" weight is? Would that be the weights for the simple standard?

GU is not a good exercise to be attempting max's. If you do, use a spotter, but if you have ever been spotted during a GU, it's pretty awkward and distracting. ( to me)

I liked the old S&S V1 criteria for moving up in TGU. I'd wait until you have a pretty good handle on your TGU's in term of time before adding in heavier sets. If you can do all 10 reps, comfortably under 15 minutes every day, and being able to shave it down to 10 minutes without too much effort when needed, you are probably OK to try a single set 4kg higher. (I think 8kg is too much of a stretch after simple unless you want to play with partials). When you try a heavier set, do it whenever you are the freshest, (whatever that means to you)

If you're are taking 30 minutes plus to gut out your 10 reps, I surely wouldn't recommend starting to move up a bell. This is asking for problems in my opinion.

 

[watchnerd]

Somehow "risk vs benefit" never seems to get mentioned in relation to TGU's. Particularly as the get heavier. Even with perfect form, things can suddenly go haywire. I've had grip failure on a perfect deadlift and it was no big deal, just a loud CLANK when the bar hit the floor. I've also had my arm suddenly turn to boiled spaghetti doing a TGU when I hit some perviously undiscovered impingement in my shoulder; that one nearly landed a rather heavy ball of iron on my face. So for me, light weight, movement tool and general warmup is the call for TGU's

Oh, Dan John has recently ranted about it. Apparently he is now against loading GUs, especially for "multi million dollar assets", for the reasons you have given.

Yeah....

I regularly jerk >3-4x what I do with TGUs, but that's because I have much greater confidence I can bail on a bad lift (I use bumper plates).

In KB world, I'll also do waiter walks, windmills, and, of course presses, with heavier loads before I TGU the same size bell.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

I worked up to 40 for reps and did have a couple of slip moments when training on grass.

Personally I feel I get 90% of the benefit doing them with a sandbag - if anything the core component is even more effective, but it completely lacks the overhead tension of the kb TGU.

This!
You don't have to do TGUs with a KB. Sandbag TGUs do much more in the strength departement, because for most people the overhead position limits the weight the most. Since there's nothing that can drop onto your head it's also a lot safer.
Barbell TGUs are also safer IMO, because in my experience even though they look less stable, you can bail out easier than during a KB TGU.

 

[Anna C]

Yeah....

I regularly jerk >3-4x what I do with TGUs, but that's because I have much greater confidence I can bail on a bad lift (I use bumper plates).

In KB world, I'll also do waiter walks, windmills, and, of course presses, with heavier loads before I TGU the same size bell.

That's what got me started on Olympic lifting. One day late last year I was messing around with C&J and got 135 lbs overhead. I thought, holy cow, if "happiness is heavy weight overhead" as StrongFirst people like to say, then clearly the barbell C&J is THE WAY to get the most weight overhead. I'm going down that path. Loving it so far.

 

[watchnerd]

This!
You don't have to do TGUs with a KB. Sandbag TGUs do much more in the strength departement, because for most people the overhead position limits the weight the most. Since there's nothing that can drop onto your head it's also a lot safer.
Barbell TGUs are also safer IMO, because in my experience even though they look less stable, you can bail out easier than during a KB TGU.

Sandbag TGU is done with the bag on the shoulder the whole time?

I've never done one, or even seen one, so have no idea....

 

[North Coast Miller]

Hello,


This is true. But in this case, do you use a heavier weight with the sandbag GU than with the kb GU ?

I never tried this, but I would imagine that heavy sandbag GU (meaning heavier than kb GU) done for 1-5 reps (like kb GU) and a cluster with heavy OVH press would get the job done. This combination of two moves - or even three because one would have to rack the bell so there would be a clean) - may be safer.

Kind regards,

Pet'

I have never maxed with it, usually use about a 1/3 BW bag and hit it for quick reps. The initial roll to elbow is far more difficult because you cannot lead with the load. The most you can do is start with it a little more on the chest and shift it to the shoulder as you get up.

I'd imagine I could get about 120lbs or more, compared to 90lbs with a KB.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Sandbag TGU is done with the bag on the shoulder the whole time?

I've never done one, or even seen one, so have no idea....

This is how I normally do them, most versions look pretty similar.Mountain Tactical Institute has good demos too:

 

[pet']

Hello,

@North Coast Miller
I really like your video ! Did you try to press it overhead once this is on your shoulder (after the "clean" portion) ? Or do you prefer not because you want it to be a ballistic move only ?

Your combination is a very interesting full body training by itself !

Sometimes, I see people doing something similar with a bell. Basically, they put it next to their left foot. Then, they kind of "snatch" it (so there is a torsion of the torso). Once the bell is overhead with straight arm, they keep twisting the torso (hips remain parallel to the feet). So at the end of the move, their shoulders are at roughly 45° (looking at the right). Then they do the other side.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[North Coast Miller]

Hello,

@North Coast Miller
I really like your video ! Did you try to press it overhead once this is on your shoulder (after the "clean" portion) ? Or do you prefer not because you want it to be a ballistic move only ?

Your combination is a very interesting full body training by itself !

Sometimes, I see people doing something similar with a bell. Basically, they put it next to their left foot. Then, they kind of "snatch" it (so there is a torsion of the torso). Once the bell is overhead with straight arm, they keep twisting the torso (hips remain parallel to the feet). So at the end of the move, their shoulders are at roughly 45° (looking at the right). Then they do the other side.

Kind regards,

Pet'

Normally I do these for time and one of the requirements for my metcon/bootcamp days is that everything be non-specific. I don't want to feel it later that day and definitely not the day after except in a conditioning sense. So no press at the end. If one was to do these as more of a circuit for general fitness then yes, you could add a press or drop and do a clap PU between reps.

I've worked up to alternating between a 55-60lb bag and a 70-75lb bag for 5 sets total. I've mentioned in the past I do a Jerk version of these sometimes, not every set though! Really adds to the difficulty and probably not very healthy as a steady diet but this is some of the stuff that keeps me feeling young. Is a great way to get some "contact" from a regular workout, and encourages me to snap that bag as high as I can.

 

[pet']

Hello,

The jerk version is not necessarily useless. I see most of jerk variations useful for "throwing moves" (punch, javelines, etc...). To a certain extent, it also teaches how to "absorb" when the weight gets down again. However, as you mentioned, I think it can be a little detrimental on the long term regarding the cervical.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Deleted member 5559]

One of many benefits of the getup *is* the total focus and concentration required. It's a moving meditation or a kata - you have to be 100% focused on the position of the bell in space and your body underneath it. Your mind can't wander when you have 48kg or 56kg in your grip. It's just not the same with 16kg.

How does one decide what a "heavy" weight is?

For me, the benefit of the TGU is the meditation aspect. It just happens to require a heavy weight to get it. Use the lightest bell that requires total concentration. If concentration can be easily broken during the rep, it's too light. I also think a barrier to entry on too heavy is requiring to one-arm press the bell without assistance from the other hand. I think those two bookends narrow the appropriate weight range pretty specifically.

Additionally, I would always recommend to clean and jerk a weight up and then perform a get down with any new weight a few sessions to avoid getting in the deep end before knowing you can swim.

 

[Manuel Fortin]

Same here, but found it quite remarkable to have ‘an issue’ with heavy GUs and on the other hand have a 10 000 swing challenge in which the original program included 50 (non stop) reps of swings... These are not as risky for falling on your body, but IMHO prone to get people injured more likely than heavy GUs...

It seems that he also thought the same. The most recent version The 10,000 Swing Kettlebell Workout: Revisited has more "reasonable" options, if doing 500 swings a day can be called reasonable in any manner.

Dan John has written a lot of good stuff. I think that recently though he has moved more from "as heavy as possible" to "as sustainable as possible". From "Mass made Simple" to his most recent writings, there is a shift in emphasis. This doesn't mean he is "right" if there is such a thing. His focus is just not the same.

 

[Manuel Fortin]

I have nothing against the getup. It is one of my favorite exercise/movement. If heavy getups are not your thing, a lot of the benefits of the getup can also be obtained from carries (overhead, and maybe rack). Due to the dynamic nature of carries, I would think that if an overhead carry goes bad, you can more easily get out of the way than in a getup. Also, the kettlebell is not over your head directly. Add maybe sandbag getups, and you can probably get most if not all of the benefits of complete heavy getups, if you don't think they are worth doing because of the risks but want something similar.

 

[Davidlbn]

I've never done a getup with a bell I couldn't press. For me this gives me some safety margin in that if a bell starts to go astray during a getup for whatever reason, I can usually muscle it back to position.
This takes out some of the risk.

 

[Gepet]

I've never done a getup with a bell I couldn't press. For me this gives me some safety margin in that if a bell starts to go astray during a getup for whatever reason, I can usually muscle it back to position.
This takes out some of the risk.

Did you do S&S? If so, did you alternate between cycles of S&S and some pressing (RoP) program to ensure you can press it? Although I expect GUs have a carryover to presses, I would assume someone's pressing power will fall behind their GU if they just don't press at all (maybe I'm wrong?).

 

[Anna C]

Although I expect GUs have a carryover to presses, I would assume someone's pressing power will fall behind their GU if they just don't press at all (maybe I'm wrong?).

True. I could get-up with 32kg and even a single rep with 36kg when I struggled to press 20kg. Currently there's less difference between my get-up and press, but I (personally... just my view) don't see any reason to limit the get-up to your press weight.

 

[barrak]

I've never done a getup with a bell I couldn't press. For me this gives me some safety margin in that if a bell starts to go astray during a getup for whatever reason, I can usually muscle it back to position.
This takes out some of the risk.

Seems very reasonable to me, though a military press requirement may be too strict... it is for me. Maybe a push-press or a jerk?
In my case, I make sure I can competently press the bell unassisted from the supine position before I attempt even a tall sit.