all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Heavy GU: Risk vs Reward (Was "Alactic + Aerobic")

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Somehow "risk vs benefit" never seems to get mentioned in relation to TGU's. Particularly as the get heavier. Even with perfect form, things can suddenly go haywire. I've had grip failure on a perfect deadlift and it was no big deal, just a loud CLANK when the bar hit the floor. I've also had my arm suddenly turn to boiled spaghetti doing a TGU when I hit some perviously undiscovered impingement in my shoulder; that one nearly landed a rather heavy ball of iron on my face. So for me, light weight, movement tool and general warmup is the call for TGU's
Oh, Dan John has recently ranted about it. Apparently he is now against loading GUs, especially for "multi million dollar assets", for the reasons you have given.
I am many other people here have more experience with heavy pressing overhead, but my experience tells me that there is quite difference between "the kettlebell could almost have hit me" and "it actually hit me".

I think most of us differentiate between exercises where you can allow yourself to fail (suitcase cary, farmers walk, crawling, goblet squat) and exercises were you always make sure to have huge buffer (like TGU, windmill and possibly also benchpress). From what I have seen even the cross fit guys do not do TGU to failure.

It could be interesting to see just how many people who have actually been hurt by a kettlebell landing on top of them. My guess is that the percentage will be quite low.

I'm a little late to the discussion.

Percentage might be quite low, but what percentage of the bell landing on top of someone is acceptable when there are exercises that get the job done that have zero risk of a heavy kettlebell landing on the face?

I think that sums up Dan John's concern. You can't eliminate all risk, but why risk heavy TGUs when you can get the mobility benefits from light/unweighted getups. The strength benefits of the TGU can be obtained with other exercises.

Same here, but found it quite remarkable to have ‘an issue’ with heavy GUs and on the other hand have a 10 000 swing challenge in which the original program included 50 (non stop) reps of swings... These are not as risky for falling on your body, but IMHO prone to get people injured more likely than heavy GUs...

Edit: took out a typo

That's neither here nor there. If the 10,000 swing challenge is risky, call it out. But if Dan John has written a risky program, that doesn't mean he's wrong about heavy TGUs.

Pressing the kettlebell has injured shoulders, but Dan John is in favor of KB presses and exactly no one here has a blanket recommendation that no one should press a kettlebell. It's not about avoiding all risk. It's about avoiding unnecessary risk.

Dan John's point is you get mobility benefits from light/unweighted TGUs, and can get the strength benefits from exercises that don't entail having a very heavy kettlebell over your face while lying on your back, making it very difficult to dodge.
 
Last edited:
So just to clarify what I meant: There is a difference between almost having an accident and actually having an accident. By this I mean that in the case that you almost had an accident, maybe you really had more control than you thought, and in fact were further from being hurt by the kettlebell than you thought ?

I think there is a risk involved in all exercises: Windmill, bent press etc etc. But also the less obvious exercises. Kettlebell swing with one had: What happens if the kettlebell lands on your knee, 36 kilo landing on you knee ? Heavy deadlifting, you can pop a blood vessel in the brain, especially if you have an aneurism. Pistol squats with weight, what will happen if your knee is collapsing outward ? Handstand ? Handstand push ups ?

Being not so strong yet I can do half TGU with 36 kilo, so maybe I become more careful and scared of the TGU if I become so strong as to do 40 and 48, but for the time being I feel sufficiently safe to do heavy TGU.
 
Hello,

Heavy get ups are some kind of blend between mobility and strength. They are a very good comprise. They are not specialized

Even a regular DL or OVH press or squat can be harmful. Same for mobility exercices performed with bodyweight only (I already saw it in boxing).

Even if we own a weight, even if we did 100 sessions in a row without a mistake, we still are human: a sudden noise, we slip for whatever reason, etc..

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I don't view getups as inherently dangerous. You should always be working within your known capabilities OR with a spotter
I haven't followed this thread closely, but if we're all about owning the weight in S&S, why are we doing getups with a weight we don't own?

-S-
Mike and Steve seem to have hit the nail most squarely on the head.
It isn't the weights' or the exercise's fault that it got chosen.
Play it closer to the vest.
That is exactly what's prescribed in the program.
Arguably, we shouldn't be counting dodgy get ups as progress, and one should deload or keep with a step load as needed.
 
Work on owning each weight before moving up as cliche as it sounds..

When you can totally control a 40kg and up getup, of course it will be beneficial for the individual vs when you unlock it for the first time..

Through that process, many technical a-ha moments will happen.. I think those merit a place in the beneficial list
 
I think that sums up Dan John's concern. You can't eliminate all risk, but why risk heavy TGUs when you can get the mobility benefits from light/unweighted getups. The strength benefits of the TGU can be obtained with other exercises.

It's about avoiding unnecessary risk.

Dan John's point is you get mobility benefits from light/unweighted TGUs, and can get the strength benefits from exercises that don't entail having a very heavy kettlebell over your face while lying on your back, making it very difficult to dodge.

Heavy KB waiter walks with lunges, plus medium KB windmills & TGUs covers the bases just as well with less risk, IMHO.
 
Why risk a heavy TGU?

Because standing up with 100+ pounds over your head is awesome. And bringing it safely back to the ground is almost as awesome.

Either that resonates with you, or it don't. Which tells you if you need heavy TGUs.

I get the overhead appeal.

But I prefer it with clean & jerk, which with a BB is actually much more weight.
 
Heavy KB waiter walks with lunges, plus medium KB windmills & TGUs covers the bases just as well with less risk, IMHO.
Agreed! But now you do 3 exercises instead of one, so it becomes a question of weighing risk vs reward (or time commitment in this case).
Note, there is no universal answer for that
 
I haven't followed this thread closely, but if we're all about owning the weight in S&S, why are we doing getups with a weight we don't own?

-S-
Once you own the weight, it's time to increase the weight yes? And that new weight is obviously NOT going to be owned for quite some time. So how then can you move up in weight and not do any reps with weight you don't own? I do not understand this. TIA for any answers!
 
Hello,

Heavy KB waiter walks with lunges, plus medium KB windmills & TGUs covers the bases just as well with less risk, IMHO.
I admit this is true.

Nonetheless, an advantage of the TGU is its conveniency. This is very time efficient. With a TGU you do only 1 exercise, 5 times. However, following the above blueprint, you'd 5 waiter walks, 5 windmills and 5 TGU. So you end up performing 15 exercises, which possibly makes the practice way longer.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I haven't followed this thread closely, but if we're all about owning the weight in S&S, why are we doing getups with a weight we don't own?

-S-
This is exactly where I'm at. I've never dropped a kettlebell in my life, over 9 years of training. Because early on through Pavel's work I was taught to always stop before form suffered and to keep a little bit in the tank.
 
Once you own the weight, it's time to increase the weight yes? And that new weight is obviously NOT going to be owned for quite some time. So how then can you move up in weight and not do any reps with weight you don't own? I do not understand this. TIA for any answers!

This is exactly where I'm at. I've never dropped a kettlebell in my life, over 9 years of training. Because early on through Pavel's work I was taught to always stop before form suffered and to keep a little bit in the tank.

@GeoffreyLevens and @Adam R Mundorf, thank you both. @GeoffreyLevens, if I had concerns about moving to the next getup weight, I'd stay longer with the current one and try some of the "variations" discussed on our forum here and in articles, e.g., doing multiple reps on the same side with an "owned" weight, adding presses at various positions with an "owned" weight, maybe doing a getdown+getup+getdown with a given weight as an in-between step to doing multiple reps with it.

My experience has been, if technique (tension, form, etc.) is good for multiple reps with one weight, then there's a ratio to be had, e.g., if you can manage 5 reps each side with a given weight and 2 non-stop on the same side with it, then a single rep at +4 kg is something you should pay extra attention to for the first time, try to get a spotter for, etc., but should be doable.

-S-
 
Once you own the weight, it's time to increase the weight yes? And that new weight is obviously NOT going to be owned for quite some time. So how then can you move up in weight and not do any reps with weight you don't own? I do not understand this. TIA for any answers!
@GeoffreyLevens and @Adam R Mundorf, thank you both. @GeoffreyLevens, if I had concerns about moving to the next getup weight, I'd stay longer with the current one and try some of the "variations" discussed on our forum here and in articles, e.g., doing multiple reps on the same side with an "owned" weight, adding presses at various positions with an "owned" weight, maybe doing a getdown+getup+getdown with a given weight as an in-between step to doing multiple reps with it.

My experience has been, if technique (tension, form, etc.) is good for multiple reps with one weight, then there's a ratio to be had, e.g., if you can manage 5 reps each side with a given weight and 2 non-stop on the same side with it, then a single rep at +4 kg is something you should pay extra attention to for the first time, try to get a spotter for, etc., but should be doable.

-S-

I agree with @GeoffreyLevens. It takes months or weeks to transfer from being able at all to being fully secure with lifting bells with S&S +8kg jumps.

It’s not about the first few reps with the larger bell, the leap of faith itself.

That’s why I think this conversation got a bit blown out of proportions:
- if it’s really heavy, there are certain safety details you just can’t ignore while lifting
- if you know that you have a strain or something that increases the risk of loosing tension without control, then you should reevaluate if that is a lift or weight you should be using
 
Agreed! But now you do 3 exercises instead of one, so it becomes a question of weighing risk vs reward (or time commitment in this case).
Note, there is no universal answer for that

Personally, I just map them to Heavy (waiter walk lunges) / Light (windmill) / Medium (TGU) days.

But I lift BB & KB on same days, so my programming isn't strictly KB only.

Note: this means my technical skill development of TGUs lags, but I don't practice getups for the sake of getting good at getups. I do it as an accessory move to help my sport (weightlifting).
 
Big picture I"d say this is a philosophical issue about approach to life. As I've gotten older, accumulated a few injuries and recoveries, I've gotten more careful in my risk/reward analysis. Not always the case. I literally nearly killed myself at least a few times in cars as a teenager, then later surfing, and later still, snowboarding. I have no problem with someone else going heavy. Just not for me
 
Big picture I"d say this is a philosophical issue about approach to life. As I've gotten older, accumulated a few injuries and recoveries, I've gotten more careful in my risk/reward analysis. Not always the case. I literally nearly killed myself at least a few times in cars as a teenager, then later surfing, and later still, snowboarding. I have no problem with someone else going heavy. Just not for me
Just another man's experience, but I have not had the "nearly killed myself" experiences you've had, and when a lift fails for me because it's too heavy, it usually just don't go, but it doesn't get me hurt.

I will suggest a cue for anyone working their heavy-for-them getups, and I don't take credit for coming up with this idea, that credit goes to Pavel T. Imagine an energy source in your elbow in the hand supporting the weight. The energy flows down, pushing your shoulder into its packed position, but it also flows up, pushing the weight up all the time. Both happen simultaneously and for as long as you have the weight over your head with your elbow straight.

If anyone reading along tries this cue, please post your feedback here, and thanks.

-S-
 
When you can totally control a 40kg and up getup
I think that this refinement by Mark correctly adds to the statement of Steve:
but if we're all about owning the weight in S&S, why are we doing getups with a weight we don't own?
Owning = control. I think if we'll start to ask people here what is "owning" in their terms, we'll see quite a margins, so while some will start to add heavier weight at 6 controlled get-ups, and some at 10, safety and control remains the only undisputed statement.

If anyone reading along tries this cue

I concur. All of my failures at heavy TGU = folded elbow.

I will add another cue, which I paid attention to. Every time I missed even a little bit a correct hand insertion position when grabbing a kettlebell, it lead to failure at early or late stage of the exercise. Which aligns with previous cue - correctly applied vector of pressure, straight line perpendicular to the ground, that presents a stable body foundation and allows to maintain a better balance. It was noticeable only with heavy weight.

Because standing up with 100+ pounds over your head is awesome. And bringing it safely back to the ground is almost as awesome.
I would swap the "almosts". Assuming that you do 1 to 4 Beast get-ups out of your 10, and this is your 90 to 100% of 1rm, you get more tired towards the end of a back to the ground. At least, in my very brief experience with the Beast all of my failures were on the way back - performance time exceeding 30 sec due to slow and control movement.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom