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Kettlebell Heavy GU: Risk vs Reward (Was "Alactic + Aerobic")

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pet' said:
Hello,


I admit this is true.

Nonetheless, an advantage of the TGU is its conveniency. This is very time efficient. With a TGU you do only 1 exercise, 5 times. However, following the above blueprint, you'd 5 waiter walks, 5 windmills and 5 TGU. So you end up performing 15 exercises, which possibly makes the practice way longer.

Kind regards,

Pet'
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If you did them all on the same day, sure.

But if you consider them "loaded carries" in the Dan John sense, you only pick one per session.

(that's what I do)
 
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For me, one issue is that no one knows all the secrets their body holds. I have an old shoulder injury that seemed to be fine; no idea and no way to know there was an underlying issue, probably arthritic bone spur(s) that cause the space between humerus and acromion to be reduced. I had recently moved up from 16 kg to 24 kg. I could easily do 10 TGU's with the 16 in about 8 minutes without even breathing hard; I could also do them very slowly with a few presses thrown in here and there on the way up. Not sure if I slightly changed angles, or the added weight somehow caused the issue, but going from elbow to post w/ the 24 kg one day, I got a toothache like pain (about 9 on a 1-10 scale) in that shoulder and my arm completely noodled. Zero control so the bell just came straight down and I had no ability to manage or steer its descent. A second time that almost happened but I was looking for it so managed a controlled bail out before my arm shut off. But the 1st time was a very near miss. My father was a safety engineer in aerospace for most of his career. His goal was to design systems so that the totally unexpected, almost impossible failure, was not catastrophic. I think I have learned some of that lesson belatedly.
 
Alexander Halford said:
I would swap the "almosts". Assuming that you do 1 to 4 Beast get-ups out of your 10, and this is your 90 to 100% of 1rm, you get more tired towards the end of a back to the ground. At least, in my very brief experience with the Beast all of my failures were on the way back - performance time exceeding 30 sec due to slow and control movement.
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Completely agree - the negative portion is always where I've gotten into any sort of trouble, be it fatigue or getting into a weird position.

But, as far as awesomeness goes, it's just not as fun to yell out "look what I set down!" rather than "look what I picked up!"
 
WhatWouldHulkDo said:
But, as far as awesomeness goes, it's just not as fun to yell out "look what I set down!" rather than "look what I picked up!"
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Yes, if we're about to brag, this is definitely the phase.

@GeoffreyLevens, your choice is a choice of a grown-up, smart and responsible person. Everyone adjusts according to his own experience, and there is no right or wrong here...this is why there is a bunch of people that only do a shoe get-up, and there a people like Levi Markward, Zach Kirchner, Oliver Quinn and others like them...You just chose where you're good at.
 
GeoffreyLevens said:
For me, one issue is that no one knows all the secrets their body holds. I have an old shoulder injury that seemed to be fine
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My left shoulder has a torn labrum (Bankart tear).

About 1 time out of 100 on an overhead lockout. if things don't line up exactly right it feels like the shoulder is about to dislocate, which causes all sorts of immediate problems in the stability chain.

It's not really proportional to weight or owning the move. I've had it happen with an empty barbell.

I don't stop putting things overhead, I just have to have a 'how do I eject plan' and 'what are the consequences if I don't'.

Any move where I'm on my feet, the eject plan is much easier.
 
Steve Freides said:
I will suggest a cue for anyone working their heavy-for-them getups, and I don't take credit for coming up with this idea, that credit goes to Pavel T. Imagine an energy source in your elbow in the hand supporting the weight. The energy flows down, pushing your shoulder into its packed position, but it also flows up, pushing the weight up all the time. Both happen simultaneously and for as long as you have the weight over your head with your elbow straight.

If anyone reading along tries this cue, please post your feedback here, and thanks.
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This is an awesome cue. I tried it with in my warmup yesterday, in which I do at one point a 32kg getup in preparation for my snatches, and the weight felt much more "stable" than usual. Not that it was unstable before, but much less concentration was required to keep the weigh at the right spot.

As an experiment, I also tried it at the lockout in the snatch. I am starting to slowly work in the 40kg for snatches (from the 32 all winter) and applying the cue at the lockout for a second also helps in stabilizing this part of the snatch, which I am still working on with the heavier weight.

To see where this could come from, I put my arm overhead with fist lightly closed without holding anything and applied the cue. This produced tension from the lats to the hand automatically. Then, concentrating on the tension and the cue, I am able to apply a lot of tension along this whole axis. I can do the same if I concentrate on tension, but it takes much more time to get to maximal tension.

I am due for a few getups tonight. We'll see how this cue performs outside of a warmup.
 
I can say this much, I have never had a TGU fail except due to dodgy footing. I used to do them for reps and had to dig pretty deep to prevent failure at the shoulder.

The second time I had to bail from slippery footing was enough....
 
Maine-ah KB said:
Okay heres my unpopular opinion. TGU have some value, but aren't worth loading as a strength development exercise and carry a risk of injury. I had an experience where my foot slipped out on me during the get down section with a 36kg bell (medium heavy for me). anywho in the resulting fall I dislocated my shoulder and nearly crushed my skull. I spent time 6-7 weeks in a sling. now is there value to heavy get ups? yes, i did them up to simple, they got me generally strong. BUT more traditional Squat, push, pull, hinge have gotten me stronger, left me with more WTH moments and haven't left me in a sling. Arm bars, TYI pulls have keep my shoulders just as happy.

IMO your better off skipping heavily loaded Get ups and focus of basic movements with ballistics and grinds.
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I appreciate you sharing this. I was considering the question of whether I should by the bell that is 4kg larger than my current largest. I think I'm good, and I'll focus on things like squat, deadlift, press, and pullups for overall strength, and maintain my current TGU.
 
GeoffreyLevens said:
Somehow "risk vs benefit" never seems to get mentioned in relation to TGU's. Particularly as the get heavier. Even with perfect form, things can suddenly go haywire. I've had grip failure on a perfect deadlift and it was no big deal, just a loud CLANK when the bar hit the floor. I've also had my arm suddenly turn to boiled spaghetti doing a TGU when I hit some perviously undiscovered impingement in my shoulder; that one nearly landed a rather heavy ball of iron on my face. So for me, light weight, movement tool and general warmup is the call for TGU's
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Hahahaha....i thought i was the only one who has eaten a kb on a gu.
Face, chest, shoulder...all have met a large metal cannonball losing it on a TGU.
Miraculously no damage other than some bruising.
 
"In which part of the move and how heavy was it? "

Heavy for me, 24kg. I was new to 24kg and I dropped the bell on the left side, I forget where but I dropped it and failed the get up, no harm other than ego. So I did the right one successfully and got cocky. So I told myself to just go on and do another left one. I got to the lunge to stand up and got about half way up and ran out of gas. I'm 59 so my peak heart rate runs out. The bell started coming down to my left across my body so I pivoted to let it swing by. As I went down I got my right knee tied up underneath me and landed on it. it wasn't surgical but defiantly painful. The good news was after a week or two I could use a heavy duty brace and due swings. The swing is a straight forward motion and the MCL is mainly for torsional movements. I did this at the being of November last year and I was rehabbing with heavy squatting and deadlifting, but this virus got in the way. So I'm still only at body weight on the TGU.
 
Oso Rojo said:
"In which part of the move and how heavy was it? "

Heavy for me, 24kg. I was new to 24kg and I dropped the bell on the left side, I forget where but I dropped it and failed the get up, no harm other than ego. So I did the right one successfully and got cocky. So I told myself to just go on and do another left one. I got to the lunge to stand up and got about half way up and ran out of gas. I'm 59 so my peak heart rate runs out. The bell started coming down to my left across my body so I pivoted to let it swing by. As I went down I got my right knee tied up underneath me and landed on it. it wasn't surgical but defiantly painful. The good news was after a week or two I could use a heavy duty brace and due swings. The swing is a straight forward motion and the MCL is mainly for torsional movements. I did this at the being of November last year and I was rehabbing with heavy squatting and deadlifting, but this virus got in the way. So I'm still only at body weight on the TGU.
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You're definitely more persistent than me.

I've never dropped a bell, but if I get a sustained wobbly shoulder at any point during the get up, that shoulder is done for the day for me.

I could wait 20 min or so and try again, but, hey, the work will be there the next day, too.

For me, I've learned when my fatigue signals are telling me the next move is going to be ugly -- it might not be technical failure, but, at a minimum, it will probably be form failure, not crisp.
 
I find with heavy TGU'S the get down part is harder than the up. I find my elbows and wrists don't like it after awhile. I like them as an exercise, 24, 28 or 32 are the sweet spot for me.
 
Hello,

When I have more time (which is the sine qua non condition), I really enjoy doing more GU than prescribed in S&S. When doing so, I tend to use a slightly lighter weight. For instance, when I do 5 GU with 36, instead of this, I'll do 10 with 32.

Doing so work on some kind of strength-endurance This is not really taxing because I rest as needed. This "strategy" permits to build up volume quite comfortably, without being drained. Plus, it refines technique.

This is something I recently found to be effective to improve the risk to reward ratio.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
pet' said:
Hello,

In this respect, this is the same for moves such as bent press. This is an excellent move for both strength, flexibility and mobility, if performed properly.

Kind regards,

Pet'
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IMHO the bent press is a superior strength and mobility movement than the TGU and can be loaded much more safely.
The bent press is actually easier to perform at heavier weights (once comfortable with the weight) and its far easier to bail out at the clean or at the rest on the lat/hip.
If you have the weight correctly on the lat and the shoulder locked the lift takes care of itself.
 
I've only had to bail a couple of times. The 2:00 minute mark in this video was a failed attempt with 36kg. Tossed it to the side, no problem.

I've had students practice this before, although I rarely have them do a weight that they're not solid with, because it's not worth the risk. Generally you can get way more out of the get-up by focusing on doing it right than you can out of loading it heavier. Anyhow, if nothing else, practicing bailing out makes them aware that they need to keep a clear zone around them in case that becomes necessary.
 
Anna C said:
Generally you can get way more out of the get-up by focusing on doing it right than you can out of loading it heavier.
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Awhile back I was just about to the progression standard with 24 kg. Past few months I've been doing them w/ 16kg (actually 35 lb dumbbell) and been amazed at how much I've learned about deeper, more subtle nuances of the movement pattern. Roll to elbow has always been my main sticking point and it had gradually becoming clear why that has been the case. Great fun to feel neurological integration of "parts" into a smooth unit; for me, as much fun as bumping up in weight.
 
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On the failed attempts I had a natural instinct to involve second hand into slowing the bell down and securing it with both hands before I catch it or drop it, depending on the situation. Not the safest option maybe, but I usually try to stop the attempt with the chance of failure before things go south, and I'd rather involve second hand to reduce possible damage than giving a chance to kettlebell to twist or fall in single hand.
 
Stuart Elliott said:
IMHO the bent press is a superior strength and mobility movement than the TGU and can be loaded much more safely.
The bent press is actually easier to perform at heavier weights (once comfortable with the weight) and its far easier to bail out at the clean or at the rest on the lat/hip.
If you have the weight correctly on the lat and the shoulder locked the lift takes care of itself.
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Totally agree on the bent press being better at heavier weights.

There is a point where the weight gets heavy enough that the TGU is no longer "functional fitness" because of the physics involved.

In other words, there comes a point where "if the weight is this heavy, I wouldn't lift it overhead this way."
 
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