Kettlebell Heavy swings vs deadlift and what is a squat swing a thing?

[guardian7]

This is an old but good article on heavy swings by Bret Contreras that quotes Pavel and Dr. McGill among others. Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

Check it out if you have not read it. Also, it provides the science why planking at the top of the swing is so important as relaxing too much at the top of the swing greatly increases shear force on the spine. Plank first then let the bell float is the takeaway for me. Another argument for Russian vs American swing.

Is the squat swing mentioned in this article a thing or is it just a misunderstanding of a crappy swing? Never heard the term before. I was doing swings in a commercial gym hardstyle and the trainer actually told me that it was wrong and that I would hurt myself! She showed me this low squat style swing which seemed to mostly work the front delts! I thought she just didn't know what she was talking about but maybe that it is how it is taught in some basic trainer certifications these days. I am not sure.

 

[Simply strong]

A squat style swing is a swing performed incorrectly.

The trainer doesn’t know what shes talking about. I train at a commercial gym also and regularly have to watch as trainers demonstrate horrible technique on all kinds of lifts to their clients. Swings are often butchered the most.

 

[Bauer]

Re crappy technique, that me reminds me of this vid...


Anyway, there is a subtle middle ground between a squatty and a hingy swing. It's hinging back then dropping a little and jumping out of the hole. Just the other day I posted this quote below on my training log:

Mark Reifkind on “Ba Boom” and more Knee Bend

Enter the “Ba Boom.” For some reason, it occurred to me that after pushing the hips to the rear, I should then let the hips drop a bit before ascending. It worked. I now had a position I could jump out of, like the bounce off a diving board. With just a bit of “shock absorption,” the entire strength curve changed. After that, every time I hit the apex of the back swing, I thought, “Ba boom,” and tried to jump out of the hole.

It worked like a charm. When I hit those last sets and reps, my mechanics were working for me instead of against me. I could jump. The bell was no longer swinging me. I was swinging it, even as I ran out of energy.​

Source: An Explanation of the Athletic Hip Hinge | StrongFirst

Video demonatration


This sequence is all about timing, as Rif explains in the comments: "you hold the plank at the top until it’s time to hinge THEN you push back and then ba-boom . it’s all in the timing"

 

[Alan Mackey]

My favorite hinge movement (irrespective of the tool used) is, by far, the double kettlebell clean, using very heavy bells.

 

[guardian7]

Re crappy technique, that me reminds me of this vid...


Anyway, there is a subtle middle ground between a squatty and a hingy swing. It's hinging back then dropping a little and jumping out of the hole. Just the other day I posted this quote below on my training log:

Mark Reifkind on “Ba Boom” and more Knee Bend

Enter the “Ba Boom.” For some reason, it occurred to me that after pushing the hips to the rear, I should then let the hips drop a bit before ascending. It worked. I now had a position I could jump out of, like the bounce off a diving board. With just a bit of “shock absorption,” the entire strength curve changed. After that, every time I hit the apex of the back swing, I thought, “Ba boom,” and tried to jump out of the hole.

It worked like a charm. When I hit those last sets and reps, my mechanics were working for me instead of against me. I could jump. The bell was no longer swinging me. I was swinging it, even as I ran out of energy.​

Source: An Explanation of the Athletic Hip Hinge | StrongFirst

Video demonatration


This sequence is all about timing, as Rif explains in the comments: "you hold the plank at the top until it’s time to hinge THEN you push back and then ba-boom . it’s all in the timing"

Interesting. It could be related to the trapbar deadlift which seems just a little bit more squatty.
Aptly named as well. Ba BOOM!

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Is the squat swing mentioned in this article a thing or is it just a misunderstanding of a crappy swing?

The Kettlebell Squat Swing is an excellent movement, providing that is your objective.

Below is information from my previous post on this site...

Kettlebell "Squat Style" Swing

Kettlebell "Squat Style" Swing

This is a excellent Squat training movement. It places the workload on the quads, glutes and abdominal/core.

This movement simulates a Wide Stance Powerlifing movement.

Instead of the Hip Hinge movement in a traditional Kettlebell Swing; you sit (Squat down) back into the the movement as the bell drops back behind you.

You need to drop as low/Squat as you can in the movement.

The height of the Kettlebell squat Swing will be low, a little out in front of you. Basically, you will be standing up straight.

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

"In the squat style, the kettlebell sinks down more, the knees bend more, and the torso stays slightly more upright..."

Contreras research demonstrated slightly more "Peak Vertical Force" was produce with the Kettlebell Squat Swing than the traditional Hip Hinge.

However, due to the fact that you are Squatting into the movement the quads are going to be worked substantially more; this is a quad/butt pump movement.

Heavy Kettlebell Squat Swings

You need to use a fairly heavy bell with the Kettlebell Squat Swing as well as the traditional Hip Hinge Swing to maximize and develop Power.

Summary

The Kettlebell Squat Swing is an excellent movement for increasing quad, glute and abdominal/core strength.

The Kettlebells Squat Swing is a great Auxiliary Squat Exercise.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

A squat style swing is a swing performed incorrectly

Yes and No

The determinate factor of the Kettlebell Squat Swing is the training objective.

The Kettlebell Squat Swing elicits a different training effect than the traditional Hip Hinge Kettlebell Swing.

The Kettlebell Squat Swing place more of the workload on the quads, working the glutes and minimizing the hamstring involvement.

The Kettlebell Squat Swing simulates a Wide Stance Powerlifting Squat. Thus, it provide some technique development for Wide Stance Squat Powerlifters.

The Kettlebell Squat Swing is one of my staple Auxiliary Exercise for these reasons.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Papa Georgio]

A squat style swing is a swing performed incorrectly.

There are different swing styles, but maybe not all of them would be optimum for the result you are trying to solicit from the exercise.

Last year I worked with a SFG that ran through a drill where we would:
A. Set of "hingey" swings (all hinge, almost no knee flex)
B. set of "squatty" swings (hinging, but with a lot of squatting)
C. set of "just right" swings (full hinge, but just enough knee flex to be explosive)

All of this done safely with neutral back and moderate weights.

Definitely a useful drill to understand how each variation felt and how to consciously put yourself into the technique you want to be in.

Interestingly, this drill reinforced how good and powerful the "just right" swings were. (I couldn't wait to get to those swings to let it rip.)

 

[Anna C]

A squat style swing is a swing performed incorrectly.

StrongFirst teaches one kind of swing, and it's a hinge. So based on StrongFirst teachings, this statement is correct, "A squat style swing is a swing performed incorrectly." But the squat swing is an exercise; it has a training effect; it can be done effectively and safely. By the same token, an overhead swing (CrossFit style), and a GS swing also have a training effect and can be done effectively and safely.

All three of these "other types" of swings (squat-style, overhead, and GS) have qualities that, if they creep into a StrongFirst (hardstyle, hinge) swing, we "correct" them because they don't meet the model of our swing and therefore don't optimize the training effect we are seeking with our swing. It doesn't necessarily make them wrong in themselves, but they are wrong for what we are trying to teach and train.

 

[Steve W.]

Dan John has a concept he calls the "hip displacement continuum." The squatty end of the continuum would be more like a goblet squat or front squat, where the hips drop (more or less) straight down between the heels, the knee flexion is maximum, and the torso stays more upright. Then you have the hingey end of the continuum where the hips are pushed back maximally (although they drop down somewhat too), and the shins stay more vertical.

But there is a lot of overlap in how the terminology is used and interpreted.

--We see very "squatty" swings, where the hips drop more down than back.
--We see see people afraid to bend their knees in the swing because they associate knee flexion with a squat, not a hinge.
--A powerlifting squat often can be considered closer to a hinge pattern than a squat pattern (hips pushed back and shins vertical, just breaking parallel), while still being (not incorrectly) labeled a "squat."

I suspect there is some confusion here between what we often refer to as a "squatty" swing, and what might be referred to as a "squat-style" swing. A squatty swing is one that is too far to the squatty side of the continuum, where the hips are dropping more down than back, the torso stays very upright, the knees come far forward and the bell drops down below the knees. We generally consider this to be incorrect and outside the conventional norms of the hard style swing.

I think what Bret Contreras, and Kenny, and Rif in the links from @Bauer's post, are referring to is less a squatty swing than just a variation of the standard hinge swing, with a little more knee bend and vertical hip displacement, but still generally on the hingey side of the continuum and within the conventional norms of the hard style swing. As Bret says in the article linked in the OP, "To the naked eye, the differences in form between the two appear very subtle."

Last year I worked with a SFG that ran through a drill where we would:
A. Set of "hingey" swings (all hinge, almost no knee flex)
B. set of "squatty" swings (hinging, but with a lot of squatting)
C. set of "just right" swings (full hinge, but just enough knee flex to be explosive)

This is similar to the idea I am trying to describe above. There's hingey to a fault, there's squatty to a fault ("fault" meaning there is a dropoff in potential force production), and there's somewhere in the middle. But there's still room in the "just right" range for significant variation.

 

[guardian7]

StrongFirst teaches one kind of swing, and it's a hinge. So based on StrongFirst teachings, this statement is correct, "A squat style swing is a swing performed incorrectly." But the squat swing is an exercise; it has a training effect; it can be done effectively and safely. By the same token, an overhead swing (CrossFit style), and a GS swing also have a training effect and can be done effectively and safely.

All three of these "other types" of swings (squat-style, overhead, and GS) have qualities that, if they creep into a StrongFirst (hardstyle, hinge) swing, we "correct" them because they don't meet the model of our swing and therefore don't optimize the training effect we are seeking with our swing. It doesn't necessarily make them wrong in themselves, but they are wrong for what we are trying to teach and train.

No wonder I hadn't heard of it. My sources were only hardstyle. Now I have to find out what a GS swing is!

 

[guardian7]

Dan John has a concept he calls the "hip displacement continuum." The squatty end of the continuum would be more like a goblet squat or front squat, where the hips drop (more or less) straight down between the heels, the knee flexion is maximum, and the torso stays more upright. Then you have the hingey end of the continuum where the hips are pushed back maximally (although they drop down somewhat too), and the shins stay more vertical.

But there is a lot of overlap in how the terminology is used and interpreted.

--We see very "squatty" swings, where the hips drop more down than back.
--We see see people afraid to bend their knees in the swing because they associate knee flexion with a squat, not a hinge.
--A powerlifting squat often can be considered closer to a hinge pattern than a squat pattern (hips pushed back and shins vertical, just breaking parallel), while still being (not incorrectly) labeled a "squat."

I suspect there is some confusion here between what we often refer to as a "squatty" swing, and what might be referred to as a "squat-style" swing. A squatty swing is one that is too far to the squatty side of the continuum, where the hips are dropping more down than back, the torso stays very upright, the knees come far forward and the bell drops down below the knees. We generally consider this to be incorrect and outside the conventional norms of the hard style swing.

I think what Bret Contreras, and Kenny, and Rif in the links from @Bauer's post, are referring to is less a squatty swing than just a variation of the standard hinge swing, with a little more knee bend and vertical hip displacement, but still generally on the hingey side of the continuum and within the conventional norms of the hard style swing. As Bret says in the article linked in the OP, "To the naked eye, the differences in form between the two appear very subtle."

This is similar to the idea I am trying to describe above. There's hingey to a fault, there's squatty to a fault ("fault" meaning there is a dropoff in potential force production), and there's somewhere in the middle. But there's still room in the "just right" range for significant variation.

Dan John, like Pavel, is certainly good at coming up with concepts to help grasp these differences. Thanks for the explanation. I still can't understand why you wouldn't just Goblet squat instead of squatty swing though. Rif's variation makes sense for heavy swings though. However, since almost everyone I see doing a swing wrong is doing a squatty swing, it might be a more natural movement. If we were to pick up a heavy medicine ball and throw it underhand then it would probably look like a squatty-swing wouldn't it?

On the other hand, as a college instructor, I can see from Anna C's point the value of simplifying and systematizing when you are trying to scale up teaching. Even if you lose a bit of precision in terminology and options, the simplification allows for more effective teaching and understanding to scale, so I am going to stick with the SF standard swing and do my goblet squats.

I am having difficulty improving my Muay Thai roundhouse kick at my age, so I am learning and thinking a lot about hip movement these days.

By the way, there are middle and high school kids at my MT gym. They were fooling around arm wrestling each other on the floor. I gave them a quick naked warrior lesson on tension, leverage, breathing, whole body engagement, "wedging, getting tense before the lift" etc. And dramatically improved their results. They were all in. SF Principles and concepts really have wide application when you start to understand them. It was a great teaching moment. "Old man" got some respect!

I definitely learned a lot from this and other threads. Thanks.

 

[Steve Freides]

No wonder I hadn't heard of it. My sources were only hardstyle. Now I have to find out what a GS swing is!

Just go watch some Girevoy Sport on Youtube.

-S-

 

[RussF]

Here is another video by Dan John


This one is one of my favorites by Pavel (not Pavel T. )




There are tons more strong first swing videos - it's really nice to watch them and refine the skills

 

[guardian7]

Pa

Here is another video by Dan John


This one is one of my favorites by Pavel (not Pavel T. )




There are tons more strong first swing videos - it's really nice to watch them and refine the skills

Pavel M.'s tip is great.

 

[Oscar]

About the squatty swing, what I dont understand is how the exercise is supposed to flow.

In the hairstyle swing, the bell travels mostly horizontally, you push the hips back at the bottom of the swing which further increases the horizontal path, and then the bell goes forward to the lockout with an extended arm. So it's mostly horizontal forces.

The snatch in my case feels more squatty, maybe because the bell travels vertically. Or maybe I'm doing it wrong. It's a subtle difference but I do feel it more squatty than the swing.

I dont get the flow of the squatty swing. It looks to me that at lockout it will be rather high with a lot of bell flip upwards, whereas the swing is lower with an extended arm.

 

[MikeTheBear]

"In the squat style, the kettlebell sinks down more, the knees bend more, and the torso stays slightly more upright..."

Contreras research demonstrated slightly more "Peak Vertical Force" was produce with the Kettlebell Squat Swing than the traditional Hip Hinge.

Since I try to do more of a GS I notice that I do this on my snatches. My swing tends to be more hingey.

 

[MikeTheBear]

About the squatty swing, what I dont understand is how the exercise is supposed to flow.

In the hairstyle swing, the bell travels mostly horizontally, you push the hips back at the bottom of the swing which further increases the horizontal path, and then the bell goes forward to the lockout with an extended arm. So it's mostly horizontal forces.

The snatch in my case feels more squatty, maybe because the bell travels vertically. Or maybe I'm doing it wrong. It's a subtle difference but I do feel it more squatty than the swing.

I dont get the flow of the squatty swing. It looks to me that at lockout it will be rather high with a lot of bell flip upwards, whereas the swing is lower with an extended arm.

This is a good video showing the GS swing.

 

[guardian7]

This is a good video showing the GS swing.

I don't really want efficiency-endurance for the swings, I want power generation. I will stick with hardstyle. The GS snatch is more persuasive though I must admit. I did take a few classes last summer in GS but it was snatch and jerk. Swings were just a warmup, so I didn't really notice a difference. I did ask about GS vs Hardstyle snatch and the instructor said that the GS focused on efficiency and energy conservation for endurance. Made sense if you want to go for five or ten minutes.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I have a couples of questions regarding heavy swings.

Sometimes, we see people swinging 60kg+ bells. So I was wondering if there were:
- a real athletic interest
- a protocol to follow to do it on a regular basis

I understand the heavy swings as taught in S&S, but that heavy...

Thanks,

Kind regards,

Pet'