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Kettlebell Heavy swings

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prize

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Hi, I wanted to know if you agree or disagree with this video and can add offer more feedback on your own experiences with heavy swings. Thank you.

 
@prize, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

IMO, the only correct answer is, "it depends." Every combination of reps/sets/weights you can think of probably has a valid use for some purpose.

As we've said many times around here, a good general fitness goal is Simple from "Kettlebell Simple and Sinister." If you're doing swings in support of or in addition to another activity like a sport or a martial art, then all I can do is restate what I said above - it depends.

-S-
 
@prize

I personally agree with Dan John on this one, once you get past the 48kg it's mostly just for show. Take a look at @Pavel Macek, he can do 100 solid, powerful single arm swings with the 48kg in 5 minutes at around 68kg bodyweight. Why would he need to go higher? He probably could but at that point his cost to benefit ratio gets way out of whack and he may jeopardize his health. I believe this is why Pavel set the Sinister standard at 48kg, it is an elite weight that very few will achieve, but it is achievable and more importantly, sustainable.
 
natewhite39 said:
@prize

I personally agree with Dan John on this one, once you get past the 48kg it's mostly just for show. Take a look at @Pavel Macek, he can do 100 solid, powerful single arm swings with the 48kg in 5 minutes at around 68kg bodyweight. Why would he need to go higher? He probably could but at that point his cost to benefit ratio gets way out of whack and he may jeopardize his health. I believe this is why Pavel set the Sinister standard at 48kg, it is an elite weight that very few will achieve, but it is achievable and more importantly, sustainable.
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Agreed!
 
I personally rate heavy swings a lot. It is a great way to increase posterior chain volume, train a ballistic movement that requires very little technique, trains muscular endurance and doesn't beat me up like a deadlift does.

I beleive that heavy swings has had a better effect on my grip strength than 1RM deadlifts.
 
natewhite39 said:
once you get past the 48kg it's mostly just for show.
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More Than Just For Show

Heavy Kettlebell Swing are more than just for show.

With many individual they are performed to develop greater Power Output.

I have addressed the Heavy Kettlbell Swing in numerous post on this site.

One of the best displays of a powerful Heavy Kettlebell Swing was Al Caimpa's 92 kg/202 lbs Swing that I posted. That Youtube Video has disappeared.

Al's Heavy Swing nor mine were preformed for show.

Heavy Kettle Bell Swings
www.t-nation.com

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts?

Heavy kettlebell swings could be the best damn posterior chain exercise you're not doing, possibly even better than deadlifts! Here's why.
www.t-nation.com www.t-nation.com

Dr Bret Contreras' research below demonstrate the amount of Power Output displayed with Heavy Swings.

StyleLoad (lbs)Peak Vertical Force (N)Peak Horizontal Force (N)
Squat Style702,170-2,349166-182
Squat Style1402,431-2,444278-353
Hip Hinge Style701,935-2,140340-402
Hip Hinge Style1402,325-2,550499-520
 
Hello,

If there is:
- no specific goal (basically, GPP)
- no desire to pay attention to recovery (training almost daily while performing other things)
Then, 32 or 36 may be enough.

Going beyond that is a specific goal or requires additional attention.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
natewhite39 said:
For "most", anything over 48kg will not be sustainable or the smart programming choice over the long haul.
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CSCS Guy

As a CSCS guy, you are familiar with this stuff.

With that in mind, let me add some additional information.

The information presented not necessarily for you but other who might have question on this.

48 kg

What makes a 48 kg the magic number?

As Kettlebellelephant noted, the load is somewhat dependent on the body weight of the individual. The other factor is their Maximum Strength.

My previous posts on this have provide some guidelines on the Kettlebell load based on body weight required for Power Development.

Sustainable

I am not quite sure how you are defining this.

With that said, all program follow some type of Periodization Training Plan; a sine curve of starting off with a light load. Progressively increasing the load during a training cycle to a final week of intensive training, then dropping the load and starting over with something light and easy.

That because sustaining Heavy Kettlebell Swings is as you stated, not sustainable; no heavy intensive training is.

Power Development

Power is developed within specific training ranges/percentages.

Most individual interested in developing Power are not performing Swings with a Kettlebell that is heavy to optimize it.

That due to the lack of knowledge in regard to it. Secondly, most individual don't have a Kettlebell heavy enough.

Go or Show

Some individual probably do perform a Heavy Kettlebell Swing for show. However, that doesn't mean everyone does.

My Heavy Swings, as well as Al's and even Anna's are more about "Go than Show"; Power Development.

Heavy Swing Over The Long Haul

They are sustainable over the long haul, providing a well written/performed Periodization Training Cycle is adhered to.
 
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I think we should be very catious with arbitrary numbers. The same goes for deadlift height. A +2m guy will often have a hard time doing a deadlift with picture perfect teqniue. IIRC Dan John also talks about how the plate sizes was an arbitrary number, so there is nothing golden about pulling from the floor. If your body cant handle it, raise the bar.
 
kennycro@@aol.com said:
Most individual interested in developing Power are not performing Swings with a Kettlebell that is heavy to optimize it.

That due to the lack of knowledge in regard to it. Secondly, most individual don't have a Kettlebell heavy enough.
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Hungarian Core Blaster solves the lack issue. $30 for the T-handle then stack on plates. I made one from plumbing pipe and had a local welder fabricate me a D-handle using pipe, metal strap, and a flat pipe endcap so I can swing heavy as I want either 2H or 1H. Works perfectly
 
Personally, I think it's a question of investment vs. payoff. Heavy (for me) 1 handed swings are probably my favorite movement. I am working my way toward "solid" (40kg for S&S). To be honest, I don't think going beyond 40kg actually has any benefit providing bell speed is good and the swings are explosive. While I *will* have my sights on Sinister in the wake of Solid, I understand that it may be a question of marginal product of utility. If the push for Sinister were to force me to "over specialize" to a degree that would affect my jiu jitsu training detrimentally, then I wouldn't worry about it.
 
Kettlebelephant said:
I think we should stop generalizing
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Great point. And not just about bodyweight.

I strongly disagree about proclaiming a general border of any kind between "effective" and "showing off". For one simple reason - if we could have such a hard-coded categories, it would defy the idea of personal training. Everyone would follow the standards and stop at the certain point rather than self-developing to maximum potential.
I do understand the general concept of "fit enough for something", and agree that one swinging 48kg with a good form and power production is greatly strong, but it does not mean she/he needs to stop.
If Al, Kenny, Pavel, Harald and others (quite long list) are exceptions, I think that SF development turns the exception to regularity.
 
Alexander Halford said:
- if we could have such a hard-coded categories, it would defy the idea of personal training. Everyone would follow the standards and stop at the certain point rather than self-developing to maximum potential.
I do understand the general concept of "fit enough for something", and agree that one swinging 48kg with a good form and power production is greatly strong, but it does not mean she/he needs to stop.
If Al, Kenny, Pavel, Harald and others (quite long list) are exceptions, I think that SF development turns the exception to regularity.
Click to expand...

Some people do adhere to hard-coded categories. They let others' views of heavy and hard influence their "training."

StrongFirst, as other strength training organizations tends to attract the exceptions and the exceptional of those exceptions tend to rise to the top, i.e. Pavel, Harald, Anna, Al, and on and on and on..

I know several people who have stopped at a subpar number and, in my opinion, are intimidated by bigger numbers. They are not interested in strength, but in bragging rights. A 350 lb, or well under 2X bodyweight, deadlift sounds impressive to someone who doesn't deadlift.
 
WxHerk said:
Some people do adhere to hard-coded categories. They let others' views of heavy and hard influence their "training."
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Yes, certainly. And it's completely fine. I just express my subjective view on how I see it.

WxHerk said:
I know several people who have stopped at a subpar number and, in my opinion, are intimidated by bigger numbers.
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This is great observation. This is also a big part of my opinion - numbers shouldn't be a guide to something. Reference, goals - certainly, not the defining factor.
 
My rule of thumb:

>1/3 bodyweight, I use barbell cleans.

Yeah, I can 1H swing my 40 kg KB for reps, but I don't need to go that heavy if I'm trying to train power-endurance / conditioning.

And if I'm trying to train pure max power, 40 kg is too light compared to what I can do with barbell cleans.
 
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