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Nutrition high carb or low carb approach for long lasting OCR

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pet'

pet'

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Hello,

In a few months, I'll tackle a long lasting race (OCR, 20km in the mountains, about 7-8h).

Nutrition about long lasting events of this kind is quite confusing. Some folks advocate a more traditional approach ("high carb" diet), whereas others are more proponent to a "high fat" diet.

Then I'd like to know if some of you have an opinion (or experience) regarding both diets for this kind of event ?

Thanks !

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
pet' said:
Hello,

In a few months, I'll tackle a long lasting race (OCR, 20km in the mountains, about 7-8h).

Nutrition about long lasting events of this kind is quite confusing. Some folks advocate a more traditional approach ("high carb" diet), whereas others are more proponent to a "high fat" diet.

Then I'd like to know if some of you have an opinion (or experience) regarding both diets for this kind of event ?

Thanks !

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...
Train with a high fat diet
Race with a high carb diet.
 
Hello,

@offwidth
Thank you !

But, would not it "mess" digestion doing a change that brutal ?

Based on what I understood from the different readings, in general, people just strategically add a little "extra" carbs before race and then during the event.

Note: I do not necessarily talk about a strict ketogenic diet, just lower carb and higher fat.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
pet' said:
Hello,

@offwidth
Thank you !

But, would not it "mess" digestion doing a change that brutal ?

Based on what I understood from the different readings, in general, people just strategically add a little "extra" carbs before race and then during the event.

Note: I do not necessarily talk about a strict ketogenic diet, just lower carb and higher fat.

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...
If you aren't strict keto then the transition shouldn't be a problem. (Never has been for me) Plus you don't have to switch overnight either. You can ease into it. And when I said 'high carb' all I meant was carbs. No need to go overboard. 7-8 hours is pretty short, but you still need to be mindful of fuel, but even more so hydration.
 
Hello,

So this is more about a progression "re-introduction".

I know everyone is different, but could you give me an example of your daily diet, and then how you progressively introduce carbs just before race ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
pet' said:
Hello,

So this is more about a progression "re-introduction".

I know everyone is different, but could you give me an example of your daily diet, and then how you progressively introduce carbs just before race ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...
Well just to be clear... I pretty much don't eat a higher fat diet anymore, but even when I did, there was no great amount of thought behind it. No calculations. Couple of days... maybe even a week before, just add a few more carbs each day.
We used to do carbo-loading (still do to some extent even though some 'science' has debunked it) Avoid or minimize carbs for some length of time (I have gone up to 4 weeks) then chowdown the night before and the day of ...

It needn't be complicated ...

Have fun on the OCR
 
Low carb diets make no sense to me. I've done plenty of races in that time range eating my typical LFHC plant based diet. I've only messed it up once, and that was because I thought I get away with only bottles and no hydration pack on a familiar course. I fell behind on fluids and fuel, and then tried to make up for it and went completely off the rails.

The main issue is figuring out what sources of fluids and calories work best for you and the event. For instance, I found for MTB, a hydration pack is essential. I can't rely on enough smooth terrain to safely grab a bottle. Likewise for food. What is one person's gastronomic bliss, is another's vomit fest. Also, what works well in training might not be palatable at higher race intensities.

Trial and error is the only way.
 
North Coast Miller said:
Low carb for prep as this mimics glycogen depletion and all the good stuff that comes with it.

Carb load for a couple days before the event.
Click to expand...
I've seen this advice come and go. Doesn't seem to perform as advertised. It just confuses the body. To me. it just looks like parlor tricks unlikely to be of noticeable benefit for most people.

What does work is extensive volume of low intensity training, regardless of diet. Keep it simple and let the training get you there. Diet "hacks" won't be magic, and have real potential to blow up in your face.

Train, eat, sleep. Rinse and repeat.
 
Low carb/high fat or high carb/low fat, why not give medium carb/medium fat a go?
Best of both world's, right?

If protein, some fruit, some veg is a base, starch and fat remain for energy.
Nowhere does it state that 'thou must chooseth one above the other or demons will come'.
It's all carbon anyway.
 
vegpedlr said:
I've seen this advice come and go. Doesn't seem to perform as advertised. It just confuses the body. To me. it just looks like parlor tricks unlikely to be of noticeable benefit for most people.

What does work is extensive volume of low intensity training, regardless of diet. Keep it simple and let the training get you there. Diet "hacks" won't be magic, and have real potential to blow up in your face.

Train, eat, sleep. Rinse and repeat.
Click to expand...


I will freely admit to never having used it myself, also never have been involved in long duration endurance events aside from backpacking and canoeing.

The premise is pretty solid in that a lot of positive mitichondrial adaptations are directly triggered by glucose depletion. If you maintain lower than normal levels of stored glucose/glycogen you should trigger some of this signalling at a lower work threshold = more bang for your training buck. Then load up with enough time for the body to completely top off glycogen stores.

Since the adaptations you were looking to improve are fairly durable you could go back to a normal diet with as much as a week or more to reacclimate to higher carb, although I'd be surprised if you needed more than 48 hours.

If it were me entering a recreational event this is the method I'd try to use just so I could get first-person experience, since I have none. But also freely admit that I'm not a big fan of dietary hacks for short term gain either. That said I've seen some very profound differences in how my body reacts to different macro levels if I am consistent enough in applying them.
 
I can't speak to the 'science' but... my personal experience is that carb-loading works great... except when it doesn't.

@vegpedlr is spot on when he says it's the training that's going to get you there; not diet hacks.

(I've done a $?@#-ton of big endurance stuff over the years)
 
offwidth said:
I can't speak to the 'science' but... my personal experience is that carb-loading works great... except when it doesn't.

@vegpedlr is spot on when he says it's the training that's going to get you there; not diet hacks.

(I've done a $?@#-ton of big endurance stuff over the years)
Click to expand...
Let me add... and this is important... all your preparation and training can be for nought if you mess up or ignore proper hydration and some form of nutrition (whatever your poison is) on event day....
 
One mistake that people often make when they embark on a broad style of eating (whether it be high carb, low carb, or vegetarian or what have you) is that they don’t dive deep into the best of what that style has to offer. A high carb endurance athlete can if they want to avoid all of those goos and gels and explore things like having sweet potatoes as a power food. Many a vegetarian I have known eats excessive amounts of soy and pasta and junk food rather than develop a true appreciation of the world of vegetation. And though I am keto, I think people shortchange themselves when they approach low carb as a bacon and butter fest. Since going keto, I find I eat more vegetables than I ever ate before and I enjoy vegetables more than I did before. Being low carb has altered my perception of taste so that I can appreciate, say, the subtle sweetness of asparagus or the earthiness of radishes.
 
Leaving the macros aside, eat in your normal fashion, and figure out how to make that work on race day. FAR more important than macros. I've never done OCR, but I have experience with running, cycling, and triathlon, both on road and off road. Each type of event has its unique fueling situation.

It's not the diet, it's the training. I can perform fasted the way LC folks brag about because I've trained my body to be efficient. Diet hacks cannot replace aerobic development, but that's what people keep trying to do.

I wish I had sources to share, but my impression is that glycogen depletion is part of the signaling for adaptation as @North Coast Miller describes, but it matters HOW you get there. If that's from exercise, the aerobic system develops. But I'm not convinced that letting diet do that will yield anywhere near the same results.

As an example, the popular practice of training fasted in the morning to burn more fat is flawed because the muscles have plenty of glycogen stored from the previous day. Again, I wish I had the sources, but I know there are some.

There is enough in OCR of that length to prepare for, keep the diet simple. Eat to train, eat to recover, and on race day, eat to perform.
 
We used to do these crazy depletion day training efforts. 10 plus hours of cycling, running, climbing, calisthenics, rucking, and more running. With almost zero fuel.
Maybe it gave us some mental edge, but that's about it... maybe
 
Yeah, bonk rides. Get up, drink some coffee, go out and ride slow until you bonk. Like @offwidth says, not much physiological benefit, but I do believe there is some mental benefit, both conscious and unconscious. Consciously, if you know what it feels like, then that takes some of the fear out of it. If you believe in the Central Governor as I do, then I think even unconsciously some familiarity with a truly depleted state helps.

If you've never experienced a true bonk, well, it is a mind altering, life changing experience.
 
vegpedlr said:
Yeah, bonk rides. Get up, drink some coffee, go out and ride slow until you bonk. Like @offwidth says, not much physiological benefit, but I do believe there is some mental benefit, both conscious and unconscious. Consciously, if you know what it feels like, then that takes some of the fear out of it. If you believe in the Central Governor as I do, then I think even unconsciously some familiarity with a truly depleted state helps.

If you've never experienced a true bonk, well, it is a mind altering, life changing experience.
Click to expand...

I've been riding for 12 years and have never experienced this. I have seen it happen to many others, but my body just doesn't seem to have that. Even when I'm in a glycogen-depleted state (a week or two of Atkins induction, etc.), I just lose the top end, and can ride forever at a reduced pace. One weekend about 10 years ago I rode a century (100 miles) on Saturday and then another 100 miles on Sunday. Plenty of carbs for both rides, so no bonk. Other times I've kept the pace high with no carb replenishment, and I do drop down into that reduced pace at some point when the glycogen tanks are empty, but still no bonk... I just can't sprint anymore or do a sustained hard effort, but I feel just fine. The only time I felt truly horrible and had to limp back was one day riding hard for 40+ miles, HR just about maxed for a 15-20 min stretch, and got overheated (Mississippi summer). THAT was truly miserable, but still recovered enough to ride the last 10 miles at a very, very easy pace.
 
@Anna C I know what you mean. That's how I am now. But my truly epic bonk a nd some smaller ones happened early on in my days as a cyclist. A couple times while experimenting with foolish LC diets, and once due to poor planning. I can still remember that day on the Tahoe Rim Trail, barely able to move, getting passed by a backpacker.

Which is my main point for this thread. Diet "hacks" are unlikely to bring any real benefit, but they do have real risks for ruining your day. Aerobic training is what works.
 
I have trained for (way too many) endurance events / challenges with both diets and found no difference in performance with each approach, however I always race with high carbs.

My approach to nutrition for training verses racing differs. In training I am eating a normal diet plus high carbs on long training sessions, and in racing I am eating high carbs plus whatever else I can consume. After about 6 hrs I find my pace is dictated by the quantity of food consumed and it usually becomes a battle of digestion vs speed. Another factor to consider is what’s available at the time, are there replenishing stations, shops, or do you have to take everything with you and if you do can you store what you need. On the mountain bike I have lots of storage options whereas trail running there are way less and that’s where gels and sports nutrition products come into play being nutrient dense and generally lighter and smaller than real food options.
 
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