Barbell High reps are good for beginners?

[Minimalist]

I have read most of Pavel's books about strength and I know he recommends to do more sets with reps 1-5 range to build strength.
I heard from strength trainers, that beginners should train with low weights in 8-10 rep range, because they need to learn the technique. In my opinion better would be train with more sets and like Pavel is saying with low reps.

What do you think about it?

 

[Hung]

I like both. For example: deadlift was done with low reps (<=5), but hip hinge after/before that is done with high reps (up to 20).

 

[coachnathanwhite]

In general, yes. Absolute beginners would begin by building up muscular endurance which involves a higher rep range and lighter weights. If you are unsure or not able to work with a professional then bias towards bodyweight training such as pullups, pushups, squats, lunges, etc....for several weeks to build a base.

 

[Minimalist]

Thank you.
I thought making more sets with the same volume would be better, because we concentrate more in well technique than making more reps.

 

[the hansenator]

Don't beginners have a reputation for responding to just about anything?

IMHO, you can't go wrong following Pavel's advice but people have gotten strong by doing a lot of different things.

 

[Hardartery]

Beginners should just be careful to stop in either reps or weight when there is a form breakdown. Greater load induces form breakdown, and is more pronounced in those who haven't built good patterns of form through repetitions. Neural adaptation and adaptation of Golgi tendon response will allow rapid progress initially regardless. Bodyweight work can be inneffective in this for failure to induce either of those responses in addition to being radically different on form and execution.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

There is also the difference in that it is easier to lose form with higher reps. It is easier to focus on perfect form for 5 reps then for 10. Now low reps implies heavy, but this doesn’t mean heavier than you can complete 5 reps with perfect form. High rep sets thrive on being looser, and low rep sets or heavier weights on tension. I think it easier to go from low reps to higher later on than the reverse. This is why I think Starting Strength is golden. You start with fives with the bar and progressively add weight over weeks, months. If someone can’t do a set of five with the bar, how are they supposed to do a set of fifteen with it?

Fives are the meat and potatoes of strength training. High enough to induce size gains, low enough for strength and not too polar in any direction. Many beginners try to “build muscle” with high reps but never create a strength base to support it. Fives do this just fine. This is why countless programs like Starting Strength, Reg Park, Bill Starr and PTTP abide by them.

 

[Anna C]

Fives are the meat and potatoes of strength training. High enough to induce size gains, low enough for strength and not too polar in any direction. Many beginners try to “build muscle” with high reps but never create a strength base to support it. Fives do this just fine. This is why countless programs like Starting Strength, Reg Park, Bill Starr and PTTP abide by them.

+1.

3 sets of 5 for beginners for strength, in my book. Applies to kettlebell (deadlifts, swings, presses, cleans, snatches), barbell (press, bench press, squat, deadlift), and bodyweight (push-up, pull-up, hardstyle sit-backs). If the weight is easy, take short rests. For progression each session, adding sets working up to 5 sets of 5 (or with kettlebell swings, working towards 10x10) OR add weight, depending on objectives.

 

[watchnerd]

TBH, I don't do high rep / light weights on a barbell, at least not for bilateral exercises.

Maybe sets of 8 if it's something I'm trying to pattern, otherwise sets of 5, or less.

Sets of 8 are okay for novices, as it's not so light as to make you completely sloppy on form, and enough repetition to engrain the pattern.

If I want to do truly high rep / light weight, I go unilateral.

 

[Hardartery]

+1.

3 sets of 5 for beginners for strength, in my book. Applies to kettlebell (deadlifts, swings, presses, cleans, snatches), barbell (press, bench press, squat, deadlift), and bodyweight (push-up, pull-up, hardstyle sit-backs). If the weight is easy, take short rests. For progression each session, adding sets working up to 5 sets of 5 (or with kettlebell swings, working towards 10x10) OR add weight, depending on objectives.

I think it depends on goals. i worked 5x5 DL's for Strongman, because - at least at the time - it was always DL for reps, never for max. And for me, 5 reps is a lot of reps, it's like I'm allergic to high reps. It definitely built some size and power, but I don't think it did anything for my 1RM. If I'm going for strength, I'm staying in the 2-3 rep range but maybe additional sets. A beginner should definitely iron out form first. Not that I'm a form Nazi, but you have to know what it SHOULD feel like before you screw around with it.

 

[Steve Freides]

Once a person understands StrongFirst’s approach, I as a teacher believe there is usually a “best” weight to use in order to improve skill, one that’s heavy enough to require good form but not so heavy that compensations start to tempt the student.

-S-

 

[BennyWalks]

I've read in a few place that tendons don't start adapting until much higher reps, like 25 (the reasons were vague ie is it the time under load, the blood flow from the higher reps, the lightness of the weight required). Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

Personally I'm a heathan.

I have pre existing joint issues (essentially bad golfer's elbow) in both elbows, and I am currently finding training around 15+ reps with 3 second eccentrics to be best for rehab in the pulling, and to not irritate them in the pressing.

No issues in the lower body but I prefer to be comfortable executing a movement 'perfectly' for 15 reps with 3SE before tackling a more advanced movement or adding weight.

I've seen a lot of anectodal evidence re. higher reps being kinder to people's bodies, and have experienced this quite dramatically myself. Of course tonnes of expert knowledge, including at StrongFirst, seems to point to this being unnecessary, and no doubt doing it exclusively leaves certain aspects of fitness unattended to.

For aspects other than absolute strength, training with higher reps has as advantage if you're relatively poor- for example, I don't want to fail a set of heavy deadlifts and have to fix the downstairs neighbour's ceiling.

 

[Justin_M]

As @Steve Freides said, 70-85% is kind of a sweet spot for getting all the right muscles to participate in the correct way.

The next step is to get the most amount of reps possible at that intensity. Strong First principles of high frequency, low/moderate volume at that intensity with lots of rest allows a lot of accumulated volume.

One might see similar volume load on a weekly/monthly basis with higher rep methods but it will eventually need help recovering with things like deloading which is when the accumulated volume gets surpassed by Strong First methods.

He who lifts the longest, gets the strongest. If given the option to finish 10,000 reps at 75% in the shortest time possible, would you choose 3x8 twice per week, 3x5 three times per week or 1 set of 5 every few hours every day.

 

[LukeV]

I have pre existing joint issues (essentially bad golfer's elbow) in both elbows, and I am currently finding training around 15+ reps with 3 second eccentrics to be best for rehab in the pulling, and to not irritate them in the pressing.
I've seen a lot of anectodal evidence re. higher reps being kinder to people's bodies, and have experienced this quite dramatically myself.

I am the same and because of chronic joint issues I rarely lift above my 10RM and usually workout between my 12RM to 15RM. This is not ideal for strength training but perfectly adequate (if not ideal) if the goal is hypertrophy. My joints also benefit from additional rest days so I customarily modify weekly programs to nine day programs, also not ideal if strength is the goal but not really an issue for hypertrophy

 

[Boris Bachmann]

The answer is "It depends." Seriously, it depends.

Beginners need reps - lots of good, clean reps to master a movement/exercise. Most beginners won't be able to maintain focus on longer, higher rep (and high perceived effort) sets, and if the goal ultimately is to increase their limit strength, then more low rep higher intensity sets are probably smart. BUT, that doesn't mean that relative beginners can't learn and benefit from higher rep ranges.

 

[BennyWalks]

I find it easier to keep an eye on my form when doing higher rep sets. Of course you wanna become proficient at executing a movement perfectly whilst having your focus on all the different elements of it at the same time. But, if I'm doing higher reps, I have the opportunity to double check myself- an extra part of my focus (not all of it) goes to the foot to see that it's a tripod, to the knee to see the glute is driving it outwards properly, etc.

Hope this survives translation outside of my own head.

 

[the hansenator]

I've read in a few place that tendons don't start adapting until much higher reps, like 25 (the reasons were vague ie is it the time under load, the blood flow from the higher reps, the lightness of the weight required). Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

I've heard that too. I think it's just one way to build "tendon" strength and I'd be interested to know more about this.

There's one gymnastics coach I'm aware of who programs higher reps as a type of speed bump to give connective tissue time to adapt before moving to a more advanced movement.

 

[Hardartery]

I've read in a few place that tendons don't start adapting until much higher reps, like 25 (the reasons were vague ie is it the time under load, the blood flow from the higher reps, the lightness of the weight required). Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

Nonsense. I've never in my life ever done that kind of high rep work, and my tendons must have adapted or I'd have been tearing them off right, left and center when I was competing. And I never tore one. People worry too much. Form is only important to an extent, a little cheating can be good sometimes. It becomes important onstuff that's at or very close to 1RM, where getting out of the groove can get you injured. Tendons and ligaments adapt to load, irrespective of reps range.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I've read in a few place that tendons don't start adapting until much higher reps, like 25 (the reasons were vague ie is it the time under load, the blood flow from the higher reps, the lightness of the weight required). Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

Personally I'm a heathan.

I have pre existing joint issues (essentially bad golfer's elbow) in both elbows, and I am currently finding training around 15+ reps with 3 second eccentrics to be best for rehab in the pulling, and to not irritate them in the pressing.

No issues in the lower body but I prefer to be comfortable executing a movement 'perfectly' for 15 reps with 3SE before tackling a more advanced movement or adding weight.

I've seen a lot of anectodal evidence re. higher reps being kinder to people's bodies, and have experienced this quite dramatically myself. Of course tonnes of expert knowledge, including at StrongFirst, seems to point to this being unnecessary, and no doubt doing it exclusively leaves certain aspects of fitness unattended to.

For aspects other than absolute strength, training with higher reps has as advantage if you're relatively poor- for example, I don't want to fail a set of heavy deadlifts and have to fix the downstairs neighbour's ceiling.

Everything I've read re tendon health is the opposite. It responds best to 70% RepMax loads or higher, at lower loads almost no tendon remodeling in terms of density or cross section thickness occurs. You need substantial tension involved - Isometrics also good for this, lower loads/higher reps do almost nothing for the tendons.

This also follows with rehab work - it is advised to work with higher tension as soon as the healed tendon can support it, or the collagen won't align along the line of tension and the repair will never be as good as it could. The collagen from the initial repair doesn't align for max strength without tension being applied, it lays down in all different directions.

My biggest issue with high rep work is that it seems to aggravate my joints more than lower rep work - this goes along with not working heavy loads to failure, which also aggravates my joints.

As far as what is good for a beginner, it is the same as what is good for more experienced lifters - some higher rep work for warmup and form , some lower rep work for strength, tendon health, mental confidence, and some in the middle to get some metabolic stress for a full spectrum of adaptive response. Both/everything.

 

[Benjamin Renaud]

It responds best to 70% RepMax loads or higher, at lower loads almost no tendon remodeling in terms of density or cross section thickness occurs.

If ever you have any references for this info I'd be glad if you could share some sources. I've had a lot of tendon issues (still have) and really would love to work them out so to speak. Thanks.