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Kettlebell Hip flexor strength.

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Anna C said:
I wonder if Travis would be willing to do another video of the same lunge, this time conciously trying to do it "correctly"?
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I see your quotation marks, but would you be willing to describe a "correct" lunge for me?
 
Yeah the quotes are because I don't really know... ;)

But based on what's been observed: no jeans, no socks, front foot 6-12" farther forward, and conciously putting more weight on the heels.
 
Hi Travis. I've had that experience, so I can relate to what you're talking about. The body is one piece. That's not debated. Tight hip flexors are not an isolated issue, so that will very likely effect many movement patterns involving the legs. I was unable to do pistols because of something with my hip flexors. I don't know if it was the hip flexor muscles necessarily, but that's where fatigue, discomfort, and tightness was felt. In Naked Warrior, Pavel says that your hip flexors will fatigue on BOTH legs if they are not already strong from other activities. That means the bent leg and the airborne leg. I have it on Kindle so I don't know the page number. For the down leg, the hip flexor "pulls you into the hole", while clearly the up leg is in a isometric hip flexed position.

Here's a key quote:
The hip flexor muscles on top of your thigh below the abdomen are easy to overwork with pistols! Make sure to stretch them after every set and to build up your volume very gradually!

Tsatsouline, Pavel (2003-12-01). The Naked Warrior (Kindle Locations 1275-1277). Midpoint Trade Books. Kindle Edition.

Things that have helped (not a prescription for you, just my experience):
More frequent hip flexor stretching (Relax into Stretch). Working on just the starting position of the pistol, leg extended in front of me. Gaining flexibility in my hamstrings has helped a ton.

The closest thing to a prescription I can give you is to get an FMS. The fact that your hip flexors are sore in a wide variety of motions means that there might be reflexive strength or muscle firing pattern issues that an FMS would be able to help you with. I had the same thing. It was only my left hip flexor though. Running would irritate it.

Trigger points!!!
Psoas, abdominals, adductor longus, and a few others. Learn to find and treat trigger points (I use Trigger Point Therapy Workbook).
 
Bill Been said:
Travis, your reasoning for your concern is completely specious. Soreness tells you nothing about "how hard" something was working, therefore lack of soreness where you think there should be soreness tells you nothing; the Pistol is a hip extension movement, so weak hip flexors don't inhibit your ability to do it - balance does; the tight hamstring thing is equally unrelated; and hanging leg raises tire your hip flexors first because they're tiny little muscles. Quit worrying about your freaking hip flexors. If they're limiting some movement, they'll get stronger within their anatomical context as you continue to incrementally load that movement. If you've chosen a movement that is not incrementally loadable, it's time to address that.

I think it's pretty fair to say the fact Travis opted to do his lunges wearing jeans and socks on a slippery hardwood floor has about a billion times more explanatory power for any variance from some supposed "proper lunge form" than than does the idea that there's some ideal quad:glute ratio to be employed on lunges and his is outta whack.
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I think your maybe fighting a battle I'm not involved in. There's a fair bit of frustration here. Try to remember I'm an instance, the not embodiment of whatever is frustrating you here.
 
Anna C said:
Yeah the quotes are because I don't really know... ;)

But based on what's been observed: no jeans, no socks, front foot 6-12" farther forward, and conciously putting more weight on the heels.
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I'd be happy to! The jeans are rock climbing pants. I'd have the same maneuverability in my birthday suit, but the rest sound's like a good idea. (Unless the concern is that people can't see my legs for evaluation?)
 
Bill Been said:
The Pistol is a hip extension movement, so weak hip flexors don't inhibit your ability to do it - balance does
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Bill, not true. When we "pull" ourselves into the hole of any kind of squat, we are using our hip flexors. Just yielding to gravity does not result in the same strength or control at the bottom.

-S-
 
Steve beat me to it - hip flexors are very important in squatting.

Travis - where are you located? Lets see if an SFG or FMS professional in your area could be of assistance in developing a more complete picture of what is going on.
 
Steve Freides said:
Bill, not true. When we "pull" ourselves into the hole of any kind of squat, we are using our hip flexors. Just yielding to gravity does not result in the same strength or control at the bottom.

-S-
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So my hip flexors could be what keeps me from doing a deep squat right now?

I'm getting better, but not there yet.
 
Lew, it's really impossible to say with any certainty - Internet diagnosis and all that.

We teach the skill of pulling one's self into the hole for a squat at our kettlebell instructor certifications and our user courses. It's not uncommon to see improvements in everything related to the squat - it will get deeper, the trainee will feel a given weight is easier than it was before, form and posture in the bottommost position will improve.

A good squat shows demonstrates mobility and strength, and requires both.

But if I could explain it all in a forum post, I wouldn't be teaching it to people in person. :)

-S-
 
By hip flexors, you guys mean the psoas and iliacus? right?
Because they don't extend the femur downward or back . . .maybe some minimal stabilizing function in "any squat".
. . .granted they ARE very important for the straight leg in the pistol squat of course.

But not incredibly too "important" for "any squat".
Hip%20Flexors%202.jpg

NOW if you are grouping that one part of the quad that is bi-articular into the "hip flexors" . . .that's a different story, and going to get complicated.. . .as in "any squat"
(alot of people get soreness in the top their upper quad, at the hip, but this is not the "hip flexors" perse.)

rectis_femoris_OrigIns.jpg
 
mbasic said:
maybe some minimal stabilizing function in "any squat"
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It's not minimal, it's important. We teach people to use their hip flexors as they descend in a squat. Squatting just to move your body into that position is one thing but squatting to be able to stand up with a weight is another entirely.

-S-
 
I will not respond as a physiotherapist because I dont't come here for that (i would have to speak french and would never shut up once I would start talking about anatomy) but as a simple kettlebell enthusiast I am absolutely positive that the hip flexors play a huge role as you decend in the squat. Of course you have to do it consciously do it well, it is not automatic in the begining. I just did 3 month of double kettlebell front squat I remember clearly the first time I used the hip flexors properly and did a decent (maybe good :) ) squat.
 
@Brett Jones
Thanks Brett, I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area.

@Steve Freides @Lew @mbasic
Lew, I'll give my best understanding of why the hip flexors (or any muscles opposite those which are the main drivers of a movement) are important. We've got enough experienced eyes on the thread that someone can step in an improve or correct. It's also central to why I started the thread so corrections in my understanding would be appreciated.

The antagonist muscle for a movement, in this case hipflexors for the squat serve (at least) two important functions.
1) Stability - By having muscles on both sides of the movement turned on you bias towards not moving. Then you can turn one up or down to start moving slowly. This is also useful because it reduces gravity's roll in the equation. While gravity itself is constant(for our purposes) the torque it causes at each joint is dependent on all the angles going on in the body at any given moment. By cranking up the force from muscles on both sides, we make this variable torque from gravity less of a perturbation.
2) Enhanced Strength - This happens two ways as I understand it. The first is through Irradiation, which I believe Pavel talks about in S&S. The idea is that the more signal going through the central nervous system the more efficient it is. So turning on any muscle unconnected to the motion you are attempting allows you to address the driving muscles more loud and clear - resulting in more strength. The second and more direct function is to allow the driving muscles to flex and store elastic energy on the away to the bottom of the squat, which you can then harvest as you drive out of the hole (assuming you don't stay in the bottom too long).

Now I believe I've also read in one or several of Pavel's books that antagonist muscle weakness, especially in relation to the muscles they must counter act can lead to reduced range of motion. This is related to the Idea that what we call "inflexibility" is not a hardware limitation, short muscles, but a software limitation enforced by the brain and central nervous system to keep us out of ranges of motion that we haven't demonstrated the ability to control. It's this reason that I think trouble in the pistol might be related to weak hipflexors.

Now this all gets back to my original question which I think maybe I failed present clearly. S&S has build a heck of a body for me, but it's a beautifully minimum dose and as far as I can see it doesn't hit the hip flexors at all. 1) Have weak hipflexors been a problem for people built through S&S commonly? 2) What tweak would one make to training to strengthen them?

@Anna C Apologies, I'll get to that video today.
 
@TravisDirks, do some pistols; start with regular squats if you want/need, and really work on pulling yourself into the hole. This is, btw, something taught in our kettlebell course - the goblet squat - so you might want to take that if you haven't already.

-S-
 
Awesome post above, Travis. And there's no hurry on my account; I'm just an interested observer in the diagnostic process. :)
 
Travis
Go see Leo Shveyd at Advanced Wellness - advancedwellness.com
an SFG with great FMS skills
 
Good luck Travis, and hope you report back with what you find out! The lunges look good to me, but what do I know...:)
 
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