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Kettlebell HIRT for Hypertrophy

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Depends, some folks may be able to get by with it for 6 years, others 6 months, and some just 6 weeks.

It doesn't take long to Overtrain on a poorly written and preformed High Intensity Training program. It is a common occurrence with novice lifter, who is overly ambitions and under educated.

It occurs in weeks, rather that years or months.

There are a lot of factors to consider. Genetics obviously and general health, but then diet, sleep, and stress levels. Another factor can also be what other training or sport are you doing besides the HIIT.

Various Factors

Yes, there are a variety of factors that contribute. Poor choices and lack of knowledge are the prime root causes.

Kenny Croxdale
 
It can be a confusing topic to be sure, only because we aren't all speaking the same language.

Yes, you can burn out at higher intensity, volume, pacing, loading etc, but these are also the same mechanisms that trigger growth, strength, faster metabolic rate.


I don't like to be the guy constantly quoting studies, but it really does pay to read as many as you can find and pay attention to how they were conducted! The best results from doing HIIT consistently reveal short rest periods, relatively short work periods, and low overall training volume.

Likewise the high intensity resistance training should be done in relatively short work periods of under 30 minutes, not 45-60 minutes of killing yourself.

The higher the intensity the less volume you should do for good results and the inverse is also true - working at low intensity requires more volume for best results.

As Kenny says it is possible to work yourself into an overtrained state very easily, more so for the beginner as they aren't used to reading the signs such as mood, sleep, diet, etc. It is also possible to run high intensity protocols indefinitely, but you have to train within your means and give yourself ample recovery.

One also needs to define what you are training for as best as you can articulate to yourself, and how much time you have to devote to the task. There are a lot of ways to train that have a good record of success when properly applied.
 
This is as close to a tense conversation as I’ve ever experienced on the StrongFirst boards. A couple of clarifying questions:

(1) Is HIRT as described by Marker the same in principle as A + A?
(2) How does the described hypertrophy program fit in such a scenario?

If I do A + A training with snatches and LED are brief periods of the described program or something similar a useful periodization strategy for hypertrophy (or to prevent age related sarcopenia)?

P. S. Much respect to both Al and North Coast...I’ve learned much from each of you.
 
This is as close to a tense conversation as I’ve ever experienced on the StrongFirst boards. A couple of clarifying questions:

(1) Is HIRT as described by Marker the same in principle as A + A?
(2) How does the described hypertrophy program fit in such a scenario?

If I do A + A training with snatches and LED are brief periods of the described program or something similar a useful periodization strategy for hypertrophy (or to prevent age related sarcopenia)?

P. S. Much respect to both Al and North Coast...I’ve learned much from each of you.

A little heat bakes better cookies.

A+A is a HIRT protocol, as Craig Marker and the StrongFirst forum uses the term: High Intensity Repeat Training.

A+A results in hypertrophy, to our initial surprise. So I should be able to extrapolate and claim prevention of sarcopenia, but I can’t get any of my retirees to do more than lift heavy items around the house, so I have no clinical support.
 
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Thank you.

-S-
 
(1) Is HIRT as described by Marker the same in principle as A + A?
(2) How does the described hypertrophy program fit in such a scenario?
If I may comment following @aciampa post, the hypertrophy program linked in the first post doesn't seem to be aerobic and alactic. It calls for repeats of 25 reps of swings , which is far from alactic and quite different from the typical A+A programs.
 
It calls for repeats of 25 reps of swings , which is far from alactic and quite different from the typical A+A programs.
I would agree. It seems like it uses the same principles as the slow fiber hypertrophy protocols (sorry, I'm not going to link to all four of them, but searching the blog for "slow fiber hypertrophy" will bring them all up, and nothing else).
The idea seems to be the same. Create a highly acidic environment, then give the body ample time to clear the acid away. The acid acts as the trigger for hypertrophy, and the long rest period ensures that the resulting mitochondrial damage is minimized, preserving the ability of the [now bigger] muscle to function aerobically. This would be opposed to a more "normal" hypertrophy program that doesn't give the body time to fully clear the acid, and [supposedly] causes more mitochondrial damage than is necessary. Instead of diamond push ups and curls that cause local acidity, the swings just cause a systemic acidity.
 
From the HIIT vs HIRT article,

"Some of the biggest damage from a heart attack comes after oxygen returns to the heart4. The heart has used up all of the phosphate and the mitochondria start making free radicals as there are not enough adenosine ribose frames to accept phosphate molecules. With too long of intense training, we actually start making ammonia as the AMP molecule is broken down."

This is interesting, I have noticed for years that my dobok (karate uniform) smelled like ammonia when it was soaked with sweat after training. My question here, is this a signal of actual mitochondrial damage? If so I can say the only effects of the training was fatigue, which took a couple of days to normalize.

Then there's this:

"Volume varies depending on goals
. If your goal is maximal strength, then doing HIRT workout one to two times a week might be beneficial. If your goal is to build greater endurance, then four to five days a week will be most beneficial."
"Separate strength from conditioning. Do not think HIRT as a way to build strength. You must be strong first."
After doing heavier A+A snatching for the past couple of months using a 3-4 session per week format my experience differs a bit from these statements.

My strength has increased as well as endurance, seems as if I'm having cake and eating it too, assuming of course that the above statement is an either/or proposition.

I suspect it's a product of superior programming as designed by @aciampa combining a solid load waving format with lots of LED work behind the scenes to bolster recovery and strength.

Lastly I'm assuming being "strong first" means the ability to generate intense power in short duration as well as being strong enough to handle a kettlebell (or other) load heavy enough to work for 10 seconds and stress the alactic energy system for effect.
 
If so I can say the only effects of the training was fatigue, which took a couple of days to normalize.
I think the issue is a little more long term. Essentially, you have two competing stimuli. The oxygen demand of intense training stimulates the production of more mitochondria (something that happens with everything from sub-MAF aerobic work to HIIT), while the byproducts of anaerobic glycolysis supposedly damage the mitochondria. I think this is highly plausible, but I still say supposedly because I know not everyone is in agreement here. Anyways, you essentially end up simultaneously producing more mitochondria, while destroying some of the ones you already have. When these two processes reach a steady state, we could theorize that this is where you start to see the typical HIIT plateau.

So the problem is not that you're de-training your aerobic system. The problem is that you are both training it and de-training it at the same time. Over months and years, while you still make progress, you make less progress than you could have. So it's less a matter of decreasing performance and more a matter of missing out of the improvements you could have made, if you had trained more efficiently. This is all based in the context of someone who isn't just blatantly over-training themselves into the ground...

At this point, I think it's safe to say we are within the realm of theory, and as such, everything should be taken with a grain of salt ;)
 
I think the issue is a little more long term. Essentially, you have two competing stimuli. The oxygen demand of intense training stimulates the production of more mitochondria (something that happens with everything from sub-MAF aerobic work to HIIT), while the byproducts of anaerobic glycolysis supposedly damage the mitochondria. I think this is highly plausible, but I still say supposedly because I know not everyone is in agreement here. Anyways, you essentially end up simultaneously producing more mitochondria, while destroying some of the ones you already have. When these two processes reach a steady state, we could theorize that this is where you start to see the typical HIIT plateau.

So the problem is not that you're de-training your aerobic system. The problem is that you are both training it and de-training it at the same time. Over months and years, while you still make progress, you make less progress than you could have. So it's less a matter of decreasing performance and more a matter of missing out of the improvements you could have made, if you had trained more efficiently. This is all based in the context of someone who isn't just blatantly over-training themselves into the ground...

At this point, I think it's safe to say we are within the realm of theory, and as such, everything should be taken with a grain of salt ;)

Yes, as you said, not settled science (if that exists)..

As applied within the context of MA training in which, ironically, you attempt to be as relaxed as possible when moving, then you explode with maximal tension in the shortest possible bursts while striking or blocking the name of the game is energy conservation.
The best martial artists have little to no wasted movement and are 'lazy' in terms of effort expended, you want to waste zero energy.

Having said that the energy expenditure is still huge in a training session, no matter how efficient you are there's still a 'minimum' amount needed for power and movement. This is mostly expended punching, blocking and kicking up and down the floor doing basics, or doing consecutive forms or kata. Most of the class goes this way as you practice diaphragm breathing while not bending over to catch your breath, this I was trained out of from the beginning.

To your point about performance degradation over time, in my case decades, I saw only better performance (efficiency no doubt), the longer I trained. So this is somewhat confusing to me, unless I'm comparing apples to oranges..
 
Because science is what it is, I no longer focus on it as the center of the conversation. I let experience dictate prescription; while science can inform the prescription. It’s still quite important but in reality the only thing you can control is your behavior and the process. We “know” quite a few processes that are effective.

Something about high dose glycolytic exposure is deleterious to health. For some, even low dose is contraindicated. As the state of health changes in an individual, so to does the ability to absorb more or less glycolytic exposure.

Al, can I help? If so, please PM.

Jim

Guinea pig, eh?
 
To your point about performance degradation over time, in my case decades, I saw only better performance (efficiency no doubt), the longer I trained. So this is somewhat confusing to me, unless I'm comparing apples to oranges..
I think things start get muddled when we try to sort out why things happen. You can make the empirical statement that your performance improved, but what factors played into that? Metabolic adaptations, psychological adaptation, improved neurological efficiency (i.e. skill), and more could have played into it, but how do you sort out how much to attribute to each thing? Maybe you made metabolic improvements, and as your movement patterns cleaned up you used less energy. Maybe as you got used to training, you were less aroused by it, and the decreased stress hormones allowed your body to remain more aerobic. We can try to parse things out by looking at how well the improvements made in the dojo translate to other areas of life, but even then it's still pretty hard to pin down.

Ultimately, we know that most training works. I think the issue when comparing HIIT with HIT with HIRT (say that five times fast) is trying to figure out when each one is the most appropriate/efficient use of time. With respect to hypertrophy, I suppose it's a question of "My goals are hypertrophy and...[what?]" If my goal is big muscles that function aerobically, HIRT might be the ticket. If it's big muscles with a high lactate threshold, then maybe HIIT. If it's just big muscles and who cares about the rest, HIT seems to do alright.

All we have to do to really figure it out is take a few groups of identical people, and put them through slightly different training programs for a decade or so, and see what the results are ;)
 
From the HIIT vs HIRT article,

"So

This is interesting, I have noticed for years that my dobok (karate uniform) smelled like ammonia when it was soaked with sweat after training. My question here, is this a signal of actual mitochondrial damage?

Many years ago I asked my chemistry teacher about workout clothes smelling like ammonia. I didn't catch the details but he went through the components of sweat and what breaks down into what and concluded that it probably really is ammonia. I got the impression that it's from normal components of sweat and nothing nefarious. For what that's worth.
 
I think things start get muddled when we try to sort out why things happen. You can make the empirical statement that your performance improved, but what factors played into that? Metabolic adaptations, psychological adaptation, improved neurological efficiency (i.e. skill), and more could have played into it, but how do you sort out how much to attribute to each thing? Maybe you made metabolic improvements, and as your movement patterns cleaned up you used less energy. Maybe as you got used to training, you were less aroused by it, and the decreased stress hormones allowed your body to remain more aerobic. We can try to parse things out by looking at how well the improvements made in the dojo translate to other areas of life, but even then it's still pretty hard to pin down.

Ultimately, we know that most training works. I think the issue when comparing HIIT with HIT with HIRT (say that five times fast) is trying to figure out when each one is the most appropriate/efficient use of time. With respect to hypertrophy, I suppose it's a question of "My goals are hypertrophy and...[what?]" If my goal is big muscles that function aerobically, HIRT might be the ticket. If it's big muscles with a high lactate threshold, then maybe HIIT. If it's just big muscles and who cares about the rest, HIT seems to do alright.

All we have to do to really figure it out is take a few groups of identical people, and put them through slightly different training programs for a decade or so, and see what the results are ;)
Yes, In the end Al's statement holds true, we practice what we know works (measured by results). This is what I do, in my case I look at the science articles and say "hmmm, very interesting..", then I go back to what I know works.
It's fun to geek on stuff now and then but when the rubber hits the road, the smart trainer will default to methods with reliable, real world tested results or results gained from prior experience.
 
Many years ago I asked my chemistry teacher about workout clothes smelling like ammonia. I didn't catch the details but he went through the components of sweat and what breaks down into what and concluded that it probably really is ammonia. I got the impression that it's from normal components of sweat and nothing nefarious. For what that's worth.
The people who didn't wash their uniform regularly smelled like cat p*ss, not fun when practicing self defense with close contact.. :cool:
 
Yes, In the end Al's statement holds true, we practice what we know works (measured by results). This is what I do, in my case I look at the science articles and say "hmmm, very interesting..", then I go back to what I know works.
It's fun to geek on stuff now and then but when the rubber hits the road, the smart trainer will default to methods with reliable, real world tested results or results gained from prior experience.
My philosophy is to be informed and guided by research but not paralysed by it. The nature of our existence is more complex and heavily intertwined than I think we will ever fully understand. Breaking things down into digestible components for analysis is useful but probably not all encompassing.
 
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