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Kettlebell HIRT for Hypertrophy

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I don't think anyone has claimed that the body doesn't or can't adapt to repeated exposure to glycolysis. But the argument has been advanced that exposure to glycolysis has a higher cost to us than the alternatives, and that more glycolytic training can, e.g., be introduced in the ramp up to a competition for a competitive athlete and those athletes can still perform well, and according to at least some studies, better than those whose training doesn't try to minimize glycolysis.

General Physical Preparedness can mean many things. If it means being prepared to perform in glycolysis without advanced notice, then I can't argue with your assumption, but that's a trade-off I, and I think most people, are quite willing to make in order to train in a way that takes the least from our lives and gives back the most.

-S-

I believe that part of the higher cost are metabolic and hormonal benefits. Some of the factors viewed as injurious are important adaptive signalling pathways.

At the highest levels of performance, even many traditional aerobic challenges become glycolytic, marathons for example. Personally if a peaking phase is planned/needed, we are no longer talking about GPP, but as you say that's an individual factor.

I totally agree that however we train it should fit with our goals and lifestyle, and not cause harm. Leave that for competitive pursuits where a certain amount of risk is assumed. For GPP feeling good is right up there with performance.
 
I believe that part of the higher cost are metabolic and hormonal benefits.
I'm sorry but I don't understand this. Costs are not benefits, they're costs. Are you, perhaps, suggesting that there are metabolic and hormonal benefits to glycolytic training? I don't think anyone has ever suggested otherwise; we are weighing costs and benefits, and for ways to obtain the most benefit for the least cost. And we will go so far as to say the lower costs of A+A type training have the potential to yield equal and even superior performance to the alternatives.

Some of the factors viewed as injurious are important adaptive signalling pathways.
Again, no one is suggesting otherwise. We are, however, suggesting there are other ways to achieve those benefits. Performance studies, as I mentioned previously, do exist to suggest that not only can overall performance be mostly preserved without a lot of glycolytic, it can even be improved upon.

That our bodies will attempt to adapt to whatever we do doesn't mean that adapting to a particular form of exercise can be termed an "important adaptive" thing. Adaptive, yes; important, no, unless similar results cannot be achieved by any other, less costly means.

At the highest levels of performance, even many traditional aerobic challenges become glycolytic, marathons for example.
No one has disagreed with this.

We have suggested, however, that there are less costly ways to train for a marathon than simply trying to focus on adapting to glycolysis, ways that can yield equally impressive, and perhaps even more impressive results through the selective introduction of a smaller amount of glycolytic training paired with more of the type of training advocated by StrongFirst in S&S, as discussed in several blog articles on A+A, etc.

Personally if a peaking phase is planned/needed, we are no longer talking about GPP
If you'll forgive my bluntness, here I think you're just plain wrong. At the very least, you are not using GPP as we use the term at StrongFirst and as most others use it. Rif coined an expression: Only the mediocre are at their best all the time. GPP is the foundation we lay upon which we build peaking towards performance.

totally agree that however we train it should fit with our goals and lifestyle, and not cause harm. Leave that for competitive pursuits where a certain amount of risk is assumed. For GPP feeling good is right up there with performance.
Here I am happy to agree with you.

-S-
 
I'm sorry but I don't understand this. Costs are not benefits, they're costs. Are you, perhaps, suggesting that there are metabolic and hormonal benefits to glycolytic training? I don't think anyone has ever suggested otherwise; we are weighing costs and benefits, and for ways to obtain the most benefit for the least cost. And we will go so far as to say the lower costs of A+A type training have the potential to yield equal and even superior performance to the alternatives.


If you'll forgive my bluntness, here I think you're just plain wrong. At the very least, you are not using GPP as we use the term at StrongFirst and as most others use it. Rif coined an expression: Only the mediocre are at their best all the time. GPP is the foundation we lay upon which we build peaking towards performance.

-S-

At this point I don't think I have much more to contribute to a conversation that has gone so far afield from its origin (for which I apologize, though I feel I've mostly been simply responding), nor am I advocating an all or nothing in favor of any specific protocol. So I'll simply finish with the observation that the estimation of cost from gylcolytic training is oversold in any but the most extreme of circumstances.

Additionally, the glycolytic pathway covers a lot of breadth, even the phrase "glycolytic training" is impossibly broad. Are we talking about habitual metcons, running a set to 45+ seconds TUT, using a drop set after a 3 rep exertion, 60-90 second rest periods?

And in my estimation the idea that "Only the mediocre are at their best all the time." is quite the generalization. Esp re GPP which by its definition means you're good to go whenever the task falls on you.

"Gimme a month" to develop this or that quality = date-driven performance prep. Which is still fine as a fitness strategy if you have the luxury of deciding when and where to be at your best. In my philosophy one's "best" is how well one does with unprogrammed movements and tasks - everything else is just a rough measure of potential progress or strength for show or sport.

Again, nothing wrong with that. There's a reason there are as many fitness strategies out there as there are goals.
 
At this point I don't think I have much more to contribute to a conversation that has gone so far afield from its origin (for which I apologize, though I feel I've mostly been simply responding),
No apology necessary. This has been a conversation that I know a number of people have followed with interest.

nor am I advocating an all or nothing in favor of any specific protocol.
But here you are not recommending what StrongFirst recommends - that's fine, but I feel it's important to make this distinction clear to anyone reading this thread. We have described what we do at StrongFirst as "an inch wide and a mile deep." We are very interested in specific protocols that help people. We believe that becoming the master of a few, well-chosen things is better than training many movements and approaches, and we choose those things with great carryover to not just other exercises but to the professional and recreational lives of the members of our community. We are absolutely advocating for specific protocols.

So I'll simply finish with the observation that the estimation of cost from gylcolytic training is oversold in any but the most extreme of circumstances.
And again here, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but that opinion goes against much of what has been written in our blogs and taught at our events. StrongFirst feels that there are better alternatives _because_ the cost of glycolytic training _is_ high. Our solution isn't to brand glycolysis as some sort of Demon and avoid it like it's the plague, but rather to minimize it in training in order to minimize the costs associated with it.

Additionally, the glycolytic pathway covers a lot of breadth, even the phrase "glycolytic training" is impossibly broad. Are we talking about habitual metcons, running a set to 45+ seconds TUT, using a drop set after a 3 rep exertion, 60-90 second rest periods?
Asked and answered many times on this forum and in our blogs. We're aren't talking about anything other than trying to minimize the role of glycolysis in training because we have found this to be beneficial, and we have - in our blogs, on our forum, and at our special events like Strong Endurance - given guidance as to what we recommend as training. There are many things we don't specifically recommend - no one says they don't work, only that we are recommending a few, well-chosen protocols. We don't say you're wrong ...

And in my estimation the idea that "Only the mediocre are at their best all the time." is quite the generalization. Esp re GPP which by its definition means you're good to go whenever the task falls on you.
From General physical preparedness - Wikipedia

General Physical Preparation, also known as GPP, lays the groundwork for later Specific Physical Preparation, or SPP. ... GPP is the initial stage of training. ... This preparation prepares the athlete for the more intense training ...

Your definition is not the standard one.

"Gimme a month" to develop this or that quality = date-driven performance prep. Which is still fine as a fitness strategy if you have the luxury of deciding when and where to be at your best.

It's not that. GPP is foundational work on which higher, more specific performance is built. As a general way to think of it, consider an athlete who has one or two competitive seasons during the year. Some of his or her time will be spent on GPP and, as a competition approaches, the training will become more specific to the event to come.

In my philosophy one's "best" is how well one does with unprogrammed movements and tasks - everything else is just a rough measure of potential progress or strength for show or sport.
There is a quite a large, franchised fitness chain that advocates training in this way - different things every day with no ability to specifically prepare. May you and they live long and prosper together. :) I prefer the "inch wide and a mile deep" approach - philosophy, if you will.

Again, nothing wrong with that. There's a reason there are as many fitness strategies out there as there are goals.

Thank you and, yes, there are many fitness strategies out there. I just need to make the point, for the record, that what you're advocating is not what we do around here. We do find that many in our community can, indeed, perform very well at tasks they haven't specifically prepared for, but we don't advocate training to achieve that "state" by the means you are recommending, and we don't believe that glycolytic-focused, glycolytic-intensvie training is desirable or needed by most people on a regular basis and that minimizing such training is, indeed, a very good thing.

-S-
 
A couple of musings and resulting questions...

I'm curious about where complexes would fit into the current Strongfirst thinking. I would think that complex based programs (e.g. TTC, Dry fighting weight, kettlebell muscle, MKM, etc) would all be heavily glycolytic programs. How would these be integrated into an overall training life...or are these considered "old thinking" superseded by the new anti-glycolytic training?

Also, does anybody have thoughts about what other exercises could be used with Marker's HIRT for Hypertrophy program. Does it have to be the swing and the press or could the same template be used with, for example, the snatch and dips?
 
could the same template be used with, for example, the snatch and dips?
You'd have to be very strong and durable with snatching heavy for 25 reps, sounds risky pushing the bar that hard to me, and I'm not sure it would be the same effect as say a heavy 2 hand swing.. Others may have different thoughts on it.

Heavy swings and dips would work I believe..
 
A couple of musings and resulting questions...

I'm curious about where complexes would fit into the current Strongfirst thinking. I would think that complex based programs (e.g. TTC, Dry fighting weight, kettlebell muscle, MKM, etc) would all be heavily glycolytic programs. How would these be integrated into an overall training life...or are these considered "old thinking" superseded by the new anti-glycolytic training?

Also, does anybody have thoughts about what other exercises could be used with Marker's HIRT for Hypertrophy program. Does it have to be the swing and the press or could the same template be used with, for example, the snatch and dips?
I think it would be possible, but I agree with @Bret S.. I'm assuming Craig chose the two handed swing because it's the most accessible of the kettlebell ballistics and the best risk to reward ratio.
 
You'd have to be very strong and durable with snatching heavy for 25 reps, sounds risky pushing the bar that hard to me, and I'm not sure it would be the same effect as say a heavy 2 hand swing.. Others may have different thoughts on it.

Heavy swings and dips would work I believe..

I wouldn't want to be snatching "Each set should be thought of as a fight to the end."

I cannot comment on any sort of secondary strategy such as shunting blood from place to place, but it does look like that's a component, as the presses are used submax during the rest period.

So maybe jumping squats with low %RM snatches might work as the rest period movement. Dips performed L-seat might work for the upper body component but I don't think snatch would work for the lower.

"For this program, we are going to use kettlebell swings and presses. We could substitute fast bodyweight squats in for the swings, but your squat form must be great before you do them fast. Heavy sled pushes or hill sprints are a better alternative if you can’t do swings."
 
I wouldn't want to be snatching "Each set should be thought of as a fight to the end."

Yeah, that's a fair point.

My other question remains. Where do complex based programs fit into this type of thinking about strength programming? If the Marker program is a glycolytic program, intended to be done a few times a year does it similarly make sense to occasionally run through one of these other complex based programs? These strategies would seem like periodization strategies over the course of a training year.
 
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Yeah, that's a fair point.

My other question remains. Where do complex based programs fit into this type of thinking about strength programming? If the Marker program is a glycolytic program, intended to be done a few times a year does it similarly make sense to occasionally run through one of these other complex based programs? These strategies would seem like periodization strategies over the course of a training year.
That seems to be how Moving Target and Total Tension are presented - done periodically, not continuously.
 
You could do a complex every 10 min if said complex took 30-45sec per round. with maybe pull ups in between... just shooting from the hip and making stuff up. but it makes sense to me at least.
 
This HIRT strategy could be used in a number of ways, one would be to run it as a program as C. Marker has written, which I believe is a good one.
A cycle of this could then be parlayed into a maintenance mode while progressing with another program (again as written in the article). You could cycle this indefinitely and reap consistent benefits..
Personally I like the strategy having done similar in a previous life using cluster sets of swings or double cleans, the main difference being time between repeats as mine were much shorter. The idea of 10 minutes between glycolytic efforts and filling in the 'idle' time with other movement(s) is brilliant.. and sustainable..
 
firstly, Apologies for digging up an old thread, however my question is pretty simple

In the article, Craig mentions maintaining the ‘gains’ with other forms of HIRT- I take
It is this is referring to something like ‘Quick and The Dead’ and some of the other A+ A programs?

cheers
 
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