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Kettlebell How are kettlebell swings not Cardio???

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Kettlebelephant said:
You experiencing the things you experience is not proof of improved cardiac function
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Agreed, let's just call it deductive reasoning on my part. I know my body well and considered alot of factors before my meat computer spit out it's results. And again we must argue within the context of a well defined definition, definitely and definitively .. :p
 
Back when I was in the judo competition circuit between 7 and 13 years ago, due to what I thought was just my personal cheapness and laziness my only cross training was in long distance walking, chinups and dips. I thought this "cop-out" kind of training was very weak compared to what the other guys were doing at the gym with heavy barbells etc, but funnily, in the past few weeks on the forums here it's starting to look like my kind of "crappy" fitness training was actually putting me at an ADVANTAGE against them! Hahaha! Also, it's helping to explain to me some of the problems I've been facing in judo since stopping my walking and bodyweight training and doing only kettlebells and deadlifts.

So, my instincts were right - walking really does do a lot for you, and bodyweight training is at least half the battle - the muscle is not the movement, so training for moving oneself is just as important as training to move the other guy (or other thing.)

It's a nice day today so I think I'll go out for a hike.
 
Boy, lots going on in this thread! I played around with measuring the metabolic impact of swings in my exercise physiology lab. Swinging the 24K bell as hard and fast as possible resulted in an oxygen consumption rate equal to an easy jog. To get into zone 2 heart rate, we had to swing the heck out of the bell and could not sustain that effort for long.

In short, you can sustain a HR compatible with cardiovascular benefits for much longer with traditional cardio modes than with a kettlebell swing. Running, rucking, cycling, rowing, swimming are better tools for the job in my opinion (for cardio conditioning).
 
mprevost said:
Boy, lots going on in this thread! I played around with measuring the metabolic impact of swings in my exercise physiology lab. Swinging the 24K bell as hard and fast as possible resulted in an oxygen consumption rate equal to an easy jog. To get into zone 2 heart rate, we had to swing the heck out of the bell and could not sustain that effort for long.

In short, you can sustain a HR compatible with cardiovascular benefits for much longer with traditional cardio modes than with a kettlebell swing. Running, rucking, cycling, rowing, swimming are better tools for the job in my opinion (for cardio conditioning).
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Thanks for weighing in on the topic Mike.
Yes it has been a spirited discussion. All well meaning people with good questions and perspectives. Lots of different backgrounds and goals. I think everyone is just trying to come to a common understanding of the subject. I appreciate everyone's contribution to the thread thus far, and have enjoyed their passion and candor.
Again, I'm glad you added to the conversation, as I think your knowledge and background is well and deservedly respected.
 
like @MikeTheBear I gained my understanding on the topic of the mysterious realm of cardiovascular training from the "Cardio Code". Great resource which takes physiology into account and a high number of scientific studies on the subject. With his sophistication Kenneth Jay wants to build up VO2 max mainly via expansion of the heart walls to increase cardiac output. His protocols are based on all out testing for instance 2000m row, Wingate test on a bike, 12min Cooper running test to know the percentages one has to use for interval training protocols with built in retesting. To me it sounds interesting for a serious endurance athlete, for me as a recovery and relaxation runner I have no real business with it.

My take home point simply is, that if I want to to have relaxation and expansion for mind and heart, building capillaries, the mysterious mitochondria I need to row some or getting on a run. As my paradigm I choose MAF or lower, as I found it helpful for recovery and sustainable over the last two years and I am glad that Al proposed to do so then.

When I started Kettllebell training 9 years ago I stopped cycling and running abruptly. Currently I am fond of having a simple MAF run of around 45min quite frequently. It pairs well with the bells and basic strength training.
 
Harald Motz said:
like @MikeTheBear I gained my understanding on the topic of the mysterious realm of cardiovascular training from the "Cardio Code". Great resource which takes physiology into account and a high number of scientific studies on the subject. With his sophistication Kenneth Jay wants to build up VO2 max mainly via expansion of the heart walls to increase cardiac output. His protocols are based on all out testing for instance 2000m row, Wingate test on a bike, 12min Cooper running test to know the percentages one has to use for interval training protocols with built in retesting. To me it sounds interesting for a serious endurance athlete, for me as a recovery and relaxation runner I have no real business with it.

My take home point simply is, that if I want to to have relaxation and expansion for mind and heart, building capillaries, the mysterious mitochondria I need to row some or getting on a run. As my paradigm I choose MAF or lower, as I found it helpful for recovery and sustainable over the last two years and I am glad that Al proposed to do so then.

When I started Kettllebell training 9 years ago I stopped cycling and running abruptly. Currently I am fond of having a simple MAF run of around 45min quite frequently. It pairs well with the bells and basic strength training.
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Interesting how I came to the same conclusion. I had stopped the "cardio", but was never able to replicate its effects without it, and have come to reinclude it, and this thread is going to make sure I never make the mistake of neglecting it again.

The long distance, easy stuff is excellent precisely because it is easy. The harder stuff isn't better, just harder. This almost sounds Pavelian.
 
rickyw said:
Interesting. Have you done any testing with swinging or snatching heavier bells A+A style?
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No, have not. Heavier bell would have gotten the heart rate higher but would not have been sustainable for long. If I want to keep my heart rate in zone 2 for an hour, I can't do that with kettlebell swings or snatches. But I can easily do that with running.
 
I see a HR graph but don't know what it relates to. I see HR fluctuating between zone 2-3 (based on how his zones are set up). Was this a rowing workout?
 
mprevost said:
I see a HR graph but don't know what it relates to. I see HR fluctuating between zone 2-3 (based on how his zones are set up). Was this a rowing workout?
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Snatches in repeats (aka sets) of 5 reps. He did 10 repeats with 40kg and then 20 repeats with 44kg for a total time of 54:30. 150 snatches in that time.

If you scroll down to his week 6 posting you'll see another graphed example of this. This time 40 repeats of snatches for 5 reps each repeat with a 40kg bell for a total of 64 minutes.

Harald is one of our forum specimens.
 
Where can I find data on the heart rate 'Zones' - in other words, what qualifies as a Zone 1,2 or 3?
 
Kozushi said:
Back when I was in the judo competition circuit between 7 and 13 years ago, due to what I thought was just my personal cheapness and laziness my only cross training was in long distance walking, chinups and dips. I thought this "cop-out" kind of training was very weak compared to what the other guys were doing at the gym with heavy barbells etc, but funnily, in the past few weeks on the forums here it's starting to look like my kind of "crappy" fitness training was actually putting me at an ADVANTAGE against them! Hahaha! Also, it's helping to explain to me some of the problems I've been facing in judo since stopping my walking and bodyweight training and doing only kettlebells and deadlifts.

So, my instincts were right - walking really does do a lot for you, and bodyweight training is at least half the battle - the muscle is not the movement, so training for moving oneself is just as important as training to move the other guy (or other thing.)

It's a nice day today so I think I'll go out for a hike.
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I recommend you be careful not to confuse these two things - walking and bodyweight strength training. Walking is some cardio and it's also restorative. Strength training can be in whatever form works for you - needn't be bodyweight only.

-S-
 
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