all posts post new thread

Kettlebell How are kettlebell swings not Cardio???

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
++^^This^^++

I don't know if anyone has used this but I'm calling it 'Strongevity', or the 'art of remaining strong your whole life'.

My goals for life:
- Strength endurance
- Healthy strong CVS
- Great mobility
- Strength through the entire ROM
- Never to be on a prescribed drug
- To always be able to rip lids off jars without thought
- LGN
- Go out on my feet


I love that! "Strongevity" ! that's it in a nutshell
 
For me walking is the perfect addition because it is so replenishing. You get a lot of benefits without undue stress.

On the contrary, your CNS and your body can regenerate. Plus it is a great remedy against depression and great for new ideas.

Some really strong guys such as Aleks Salkin and Phill Chubb (the_mindful_mover) swear by walking as a great addition for health, regeneration, stamina and fat loss. Apparently your long walks also help you recover between sets of strength exercises. Plus it is a major OS reset.
I totally agree. I walked 3 hours yesterday and another 3 hours today. It takes no thought, no stress, not really any effort, but you get your heart rate up for hours without having to stop moving at all, make your whole body moderately strong everywhere, develop better balance, better alertness, you're away from stressors, I personally have a feeling of "adventure" when I'm out walking, which I suppose is a form of entertainment. I certainly claim to get strength benefits from walking, even immediately, which may be due to movement patterns or simply the stimulation of muscles and joints that otherwise are left dormant. It definitely does maintain and/or develop a decent overall strength, though. I know this from doing it for 30 years as an exercise. Absolutely no question it strengthens/keeps strong the legs. My absolute fundamental, steady, default exercise has been walking my whole entire teenage and adult life. It's an endurance exercise of significant merit past an hour or two. Throw a backpack on and it becomes a heroic exercise I think. It's fine just with your own bodyweight, and the fatter and heavier you are, the more benefit you get from it - the stronger you get! I think the time on task matters. You should get out for walks that are significantly over an hour in length. I think the advice I've heard about 30 minutes being the minimum is for people who are just looking at the barest minimum of advantages from it. For me, 75 minutes is the minimum.
 
having been on both sides of the extreme end of these games (ultra marathons and competitive powerlifting) I can agree with you as to 'one man's trash...etc". In the real world there are very few elites and those that are remain so for a very short period of time

What it boils down to most of us, for most of our lives, is being strong and enduring and resilient and physically fit for what life hands us is crucial. Balanced training is very much underrated.

Not being able to walk for more than few blocks for over 20 years I grew to greatly appreciate( and be envious of ) those able to walk run or cycle for hours with little or no ramifications. Now that I can do that I know I was right; a base line of aerobic fitness ( call it what you want) is critical to overall health and longevity.
I'll add that if you extend the walking to longer, it grants more than just a baseline. It's a pretty significant whole body exercise of the first order. Of course, when done for just 20 minutes or so, it's just as sissy an exercise as the typical person out there believes it to be. At 2-3 hours or longer it ain't no sissy workout at all! My minimum is 75 minutes.
 
As the first one to train Kenneth's Snatch Vo2 protocols after his presentation at the level 2 RKC back in 2007 I've gone back and forth with him over the years as to whether swings would be a suitable substitute for snatches in these protocols. His answer was that that were ok but not as good as the snatches because "with swings there is too much continuous tension" as opposed to the snatches where there is quite a bit of 'unloading' of tension ( and therefore the heart) during the float phases of the ascent and descent.

This unloading of tension was what makes the snatch unique as the closest one can get with resistance tools to actually cardiovascular training which always includes a relaxation phase as part of the cyclical nature of classic cardio/aerobic exercise ( i.e running, swimming, biking).

The reason ' lifting weights fast' is not true 'cardio' is just that- too much continual tension on the heart.

Will swings improve your conditioning and your hearts ability to go hard for a long period of time? Undoubtedly. Is it "true" aerobic exercise? No. But that's relatively easy to get with just fast walking ,rucking etc.

The one thing that is usually missed about KJ's max vo2 snatch training is that the goal was always to train your HR up to actually max levels ( I usually got to 185-200) during work sets. the reason this was possible is because of the 15 second breaks every 15 seconds where the HR can come down enough to allow you to continue, only to have it pushed back up after another 15 seconds of work.

I'm not sure if my max vo2 actually improved over the years I trained it but my resting hr did drop from 62 to 48 in the mornings after the first 8 weeks of training. And, over the course of a year I worked up from 35 sets of 7 with a 16 kg bell to 40 sets of 8 with the same bell. That is one very serious workout from any perspective.

this was my last workout before I did 80 sets of 8



BTW my training for the 48 kg sinister swing test ( which I accomplished although I didn't swing the bell to standard height enough reps) was much much harder just given the sheer mass of the bell.Not sure I was in better "shape" though than I was snatching the 16 :)

I suspect the extreme training you did with the very light kettlebells made the sinister swings possible. Interesting. This might be another one of those proofs of enormous reps of light weights getting you ready for few reps of heavy weights.
 
By the way, I just came across this interesting comment by Pavel with regards to combining S+S with aerobic work.
Simple & Sinister Progression Tactic | StrongFirst

Chris, aerobic LSD is complimentary to S&S.

Here is the rule of thumb of aerobic training before or after strength training. if you are focusing on neural adaptations, do strength work first (or the day before) when you are fresh. If you are focusing on hypertrophy, you can lift after LSD (same or next day) and it is best to avoid LSD (except very easy work) for 48 hours.

S&S is a program that combines various adaptations: strength, power, hypertrophy, endurance. As such, it can go either way.
 
I suspect the extreme training you did with the very light kettlebells made the sinister swings possible. Interesting. This might be another one of those proofs of enormous reps of light weights getting you ready for few reps of heavy weights.

@taikei said it helped with his press
 
I suspect the extreme training you did with the very light kettlebells made the sinister swings possible. Interesting. This might be another one of those proofs of enormous reps of light weights getting you ready for few reps of heavy weights.
Nope not even close unfortunately.

when i was doing all that light and fast snatching I didn't use anything heavier than 32 kg for one arm swings.
It was only after I switched from snatch as the main course to one arm swing and started pushing the loads up there that made it possible

I trained specifically for Sinister swing test for over three years going heavy every saturday. I cycled the training weight each week, switching every week for 4 then coming back down and starting over as I built up the base to 10 sets of 10/10 with each bell

wk 1 32 kg bell
wk 2 36 kg
wk 3 40 kg
wk 4 44 kg
wk 5 48 kg
wk 6 32 kg

etc

First goal with each weight was 10 sets of 5/5. when I got that then it was up to 10 x 6/6 and so on. I kept track of where I was with each bell until I slowly built up to 200 reps in sets of 10/10 with the 48. Then I repeated that workout 16 + times

I did have a light swing day on Wednesday where I stayed with the 24 kg bell for sets of 10 reps per arm and cycled the time: 10 , 12 14 ,16 18 and 20 min. Cycled each week with the different bell sizes.

then I started to peak for the test.

No doubt all the volume I did before helped build my base but it was very specific training that got me through it
 
First goal with each weight was 10 sets of 5/5. when I got that then it was up to 10 x 6/6 and so on. I kept track of where I was with each bell until I slowly built up to 200 reps in sets of 10/10 with the 48. Then I repeated that workout 16 + times

I did have a light swing day on Wednesday where I stayed with the 24 kg bell for sets of 10 reps per arm and cycled the time: 10 , 12 14 ,16 18 and 20 min. Cycled each week with the different bell

That's a serious program..

Were the beginning 10 sets of 5/5 done on the 30 sec mark and done from the beginning of the program for time as in S&S test mode? Meaning starting from the beginning all the way through to finally owning the beast in the 5 min test? Or was it OTM and slowly reducing time down as your power increased?

Same question on the 24k bell, were the swings OTM and when cycling the number of minutes each week did that go 10, 12, 14, 16.... mins in order or were the mins changed randomly?
 
That's a serious program..

Were the beginning 10 sets of 5/5 done on the 30 sec mark and done from the beginning of the program for time as in S&S test mode? Meaning starting from the beginning all the way through to finally owning the beast in the 5 min test? Or was it OTM and slowly reducing time down as your power increased?

Same question on the 24k bell, were the swings OTM and when cycling the number of minutes each week did that go 10, 12, 14, 16.... mins in order or were the mins changed randomly?

thanks and it was ( is). My goal was to be able to strongly do twice the amount of work in a workout ( 200 reps) that was needed for the test. This was my approach to the snatch test too. double the workload in an UNTIMED workout. i.e after each set I took as much rest as needed to get hr and respiration down usually 2-3 min.

I train with 2 or 3 other guys and it really depends on who else shows up. we just go in turn and when it's your turn you go. But I never rushed it. Wed was on the clock 15;15

I tested the five minute test at each weight once I reached 10 sets of 10/10 with it strongly. My test with the 36 and 40 kg were tough but the one with the 44 convinced me I would NEVER be able to do it with the 48 it was that hard. That's why I ended up doing 16 workouts with it as it just wouldnt get easier.

Not until I figured out how to do the athletic swing and get some more leg in the mix did it happen
 
@Rif

That's great work and planning, not to mention the dogged determination it takes. My take away from this is 'get strong slowly' (and intelligently), it's really the only way to achieve stellar levels of strength, strength endurance and CV fitness.
 
@Rif

That's great work and planning, not to mention the dogged determination it takes. My take away from this is 'get strong slowly' (and intelligently), it's really the only way to achieve stellar levels of strength, strength endurance and CV fitness.

Yes, there is no other way. and the dogged determination part is true. You must have a plan and patience :)
 
Nope not even close unfortunately.

when i was doing all that light and fast snatching I didn't use anything heavier than 32 kg for one arm swings.
It was only after I switched from snatch as the main course to one arm swing and started pushing the loads up there that made it possible

I trained specifically for Sinister swing test for over three years going heavy every saturday. I cycled the training weight each week, switching every week for 4 then coming back down and starting over as I built up the base to 10 sets of 10/10 with each bell

wk 1 32 kg bell
wk 2 36 kg
wk 3 40 kg
wk 4 44 kg
wk 5 48 kg
wk 6 32 kg

etc

First goal with each weight was 10 sets of 5/5. when I got that then it was up to 10 x 6/6 and so on. I kept track of where I was with each bell until I slowly built up to 200 reps in sets of 10/10 with the 48. Then I repeated that workout 16 + times

I did have a light swing day on Wednesday where I stayed with the 24 kg bell for sets of 10 reps per arm and cycled the time: 10 , 12 14 ,16 18 and 20 min. Cycled each week with the different bell sizes.

then I started to peak for the test.

No doubt all the volume I did before helped build my base but it was very specific training that got me through it
Thank you for clearing that up for me. I can see that having the intermediate weights helped. I don't have these.
 
Thank you for clearing that up for me. I can see that having the intermediate weights helped. I don't have these.


Yes they really did and there are big differences between them even for such small jumps!
 
@mprevost
Quite a surprising amount of respectable long run results have been done with a 10:1 strategy (run 10 mis, walk for 1 min). That is a tried and true strategy... any ideas why that (and your’s and Steve’s way) works? Pure mental, or are there physiological factors (like muscle relaxation or so?)
The Galloway Method delves into this. Some of it is just letting the "running muscles" rest a bit while you walk. You also let your heart rate drop a bit during the walk, so it's a physical and mental break. The most enjoyable distance I cover is with a variation of this - but with much less running time. Some casual exercisers even flip it to a longer walk than run. Nothing wrong with that either.
 
@mprevost - great stuff, thank you for the explanations!

Also, does zone 2 cardio in other activities transfer? I'm looking at getting a rower or stationary bike when I PCS to Oklahoma next month so I can do 30-40min, zone 2 at-home cardio while my wife watches TV in the evening. I know I can't stop running altogether but I want to maybe do 60%+ of my zone 2 training at home rather than jogging slow on my own for hours.

What would you recommend?
Great question! And one that I have thought about since the beginning of the year when my wife bought a Tread Climber. I know there won't be a 100% transfer from walking on an incline to jogging. But I am curious if doing a significant amount of work in zone 2 on the TC will have a positive carryover to jogging/running improvement. As it gets hotter, I am not as eager to get out and run.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom