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Kettlebell How does Kettlebell strength programming compare to bodyweight programming?

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PaulAtreides

PaulAtreides

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Apart from Swings, and some snatching for cardio with the 24kg bell, I've never followed any structured kettlebell program. I want to add Kettlebell military presses and Goblet squats to my routine, mainly for strength and a resilient back.

Side note - I have the following bells in my basement (kilogrammes): 12, 16, 24, 32, 48.

My question is, can I use my toolbox of Pull-up programs and apply them to said kettlebell exercises, or will they not work as well?

To be more specific I'm thinking of using some of the following templates, always taking a 3-5rm weight and training with it until it becomes a 10-20rm, then increasing weight and starting over.
- Fighter Pull-up
- Grease the Groove
- Ladders
- Ethan Reeve's density training
- German army Pull-up program (6 sets of 70% Repmax, 3-4 min rest, train every other day, increase rep count by 2 every other week)
- Arnolds 100 Pull-up program (as described by Matt Kroc, number 3 in the article)

Do you think this will work well or are there better methods for Goblet squats and KB military presses?


My current stats
75kg BW
KB Military press: 1x 32kg left, 2x 32kg right. 10x 24kg L/R
Goblet Squat: 10 reps with 24kg
 
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I wouldn't try to reinvent something or re-purpose a somewhat specialized for something to something else. While the other programs may work, there are optimized programs that folks have put a lot of R&D into that will probably serve you better. I find the biggest strengths of kettlebells consist of the extreme alactic power and active recovery from hardstyle swings and the full body tension with the get up or bent press. The book Enter the Kettlebell has a detailed pressing program you may be interested in called Rite of Passage.

I went from doing unstructured ballistics to a rather structured 10x10 ballistics and that experiment yielded a considered quality of life gain as I wasn't beating myself up but I was still training to generate more power. Doing that may be worth your time as well.
 
You could use some of the principles and apply them to KBs. In fact some of them might fit well (GtG, Ladders, Ethan Reeve).
Your stats tell me that you are decently strong so I'd build up on that.
I'd suggest get yourself a copy of "Enter the Kettlebell" by Pavel Tsatsouline and follow the Rite of Passage programme. It won't dissapoint you!
 
I would do the kettlebell rite of passage and throw in 3 x 5 mobility goblet squats everyday. On variety days do some heavier mobility goblet squats using the same rep scheme.
The Rite of Passage is such a complete program :

The push is covered by the press and turkish get up. The pull is covered by the chin up, swing, snatch and clean. The hinge is covered by the swing, snatch and clean. The squat can be covered with daily goblet squats. The loaded carry can be grouped in with the turkish get up. Also, variety days provide so much opportunity to integrate some more squatting, get ups and loaded carries.
 
Goblet Squats make for a great warm up, too.

Here is my standart warm up with KB:

1a: KB Halos 3x5/side
1b: Push Up 3x10
1c: Prying Goblet Squat (3x5/side) or Goblet Squat (3x5)

The pure BW standart warm up:

1a: Egyptian: 3x5/side
1b: Push Up: 3x10
1c: Cossack Squats: 3x5/side + side twist after last rep for 10'
 
The recommended program here is S&S. Nothing wrong with ETK of course, but as it was explained to me, the recommended route is S&S to the Simple standard and then if you like to go on to ETK, and then perhaps back to S&S to go all the way to Sinister - but God help you with that!

Sure, there are plenty of things one can do with a kettlebell or two, but as someone mentioned above, a lot of research and development has gone into structured programs, and if Strong First recommends a certain route, I can't see the logic in not following it without a good reason.

Now, this is a different scenario from just adding on a few kettlebell moves to your repertoire. In any case, the 1 handed swing is the golden standard of kettlebell exercises, no? It's the big pull par excellence with this exercise tool. As for a big push, the TGU covers the most ground, but if you're looking for something simpler and less time consuming, the simple military press is excellent. I personally find the snatch a tricky move and maybe not worth it for me given that I have the swing to do which is much easier to handle. I think if you're into windmills then why not go all out and do TGUs?
 
Thanks for your feedback everyone!

Kozushi said:
if Strong First recommends a certain route, I can't see the logic in not following it without a good reason.
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I'm recovering from back issues related to my scoliosis, so I really want to add one Kettlebell exercise at a time, master it, make progress and see what it does for my back before I move to the next exercise.
2h swings (24-32kg for 20-40 reps) for example feel like they do more harm than good for my back, whereas goblet squats feel incredibly good and seem to address most of my issues in a healthy way. Another reason is that I don't have a copy of S&S yet, however, I do have a copy of ETK.

Other than these two reasons I absolutely agree with you.

Marc said:
I'd suggest get yourself a copy of "Enter the Kettlebell" by Pavel Tsatsouline and follow the Rite of Passage programme. It won't dissapoint you!
Click to expand...
I feel really dumb to say this, but I have a copy and I've read "Chapter 3: The Rite of Passage" (pages 77-129) many times, and re-read it once more today and I still can't find the actual ROP program/method:oops:.

Is there a somewhat condensed version in the book, something like a 0.5-5 page-long set of instructions?

Riley O'Neill said:
I went from doing unstructured ballistics to a rather structured 10x10 ballistics and that experiment yielded a considered quality of life gain as I wasn't beating myself up but I was still training to generate more power. Doing that may be worth your time as well.
Click to expand...
10x10 ballistics sounds interesting, where can I get more info on it? or is it a method of your own?
 
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PaulAtreides said:
I feel really dumb to say this, but I have a copy and I've read "Chapter 3: The Rite of Passage" (pages 77-129) many times, and re-read it once more today and I still can't find the actual ROP program/method:oops:.
Click to expand...

In my copy, the Rite of Passage Training Plan Summary is printed on pages 150-151. There's also a 'Workbook' in ebook format created by Anthony DiLuglio to take you through the ROP step-by-step in greater detail. It's no longer available from DiLuglio's website but you shouldn't have any trouble tracking it down with a quick search.
 
Chrisdavisjr said:
In my copy, the Rite of Passage Training Plan Summary is printed on pages 150-151. There's also a 'Workbook' in ebook format created by Anthony DiLuglio to take you through the ROP step-by-step in greater detail. It's no longer available from DiLuglio's website but you shouldn't have any trouble tracking it down with a quick search.
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Thanks a lot for the page numbers! it's on pages 150-151 in my copy as well.

The workbook looks really helpful too, I'll take a closer look at it later today.
 
PaulAtreides said:
To be more specific I'm thinking of using some of the following templates, always taking a 3-5rm weight and training with it until it becomes a 10-20rm, then increasing weight and starting over.
- Fighter Pull-up
- Grease the Groove
- Ladders
- Ethan Reeve's density training
- German army Pull-up program (6 sets of 70% Repmax, 3-4 min rest, train every other day, increase rep count by 2 every other week)
- Arnolds 100 Pull-up program (as described by Matt Kroc, number 3 in the article)
Click to expand...
@PaulAtreides, most of what you've listed is from here or you've given links to the source - do you have a link for the German army Pull-up program?

Thanks very much.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
@PaulAtreides, do you have a link for the German army Pull-up program?

-S-
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Unfortunately, I do not have a source for it.
My cousin gave it to me almost ten years ago and claimed it was the standard Bundeswehr (German Army) program. It was the first program I used when I initially started strength training at age ~14, the fighter pull-up was my second program.
I've been trying to find the source in German (my native language) for a while now, no clue where he's got it from and I think neither does he, but I'll ask him next time I talk to him. We just refer to it as "The Bundeswehr program". I know he inherited this 1970's German sports science manual from our grandfather and he loves that book, so that's the closest guess I could give you for now.

Anyhow, all I know is that it works really well for bodyweight exercises. It's kind of my go-to program when starting out with a new BW exercise and I've had great success applying it to conventional pull-ups, one arm Pushups and special pull-up variations (thick rope pull-ups, judo belt pull-ups). haven't tried it for weighted variations as of now, for no specific reason.

As already mentioned, you test your repmax for the given exercise, let's say you can do 10 pull-ups.
You work with 70% of that for 6 reps and 3-4 minutes of rest, every other day
week 1 & 2: 7-7-7-7-7-7
then after 2 weeks increase by 2
week 3 & 4: 9-9-9-9-9-9
and so on.

I believe I've never trained with sets higher than 7 reps because by that time I'd usually achieve a repmax in the 10-15 zone (=mission accomplished, as far as I'm concerned). The lowest I've successfully trained with was sets of 3 I believe, if I remember correctly, 2 reps per set didn't work for me.
If I remember correctly, the longest I've trained with it was 8 consecutive weeks until it stopped working, usually I use it for about 4-6 weeks, test my max, add weight and switch programs.
Not sure how well it translates to higher ranges, I just know that I didn't make progress with it when applied to conventional push-ups in the ~25 rep range. I also haven't tried it for weighted variations as of now, for no specific reason.

-----------------------------

I might try to use it for KB presses or goblet squats as soon as I can do 4+ reps with the 32kg bell, as a proof of concept. I don't see why it shouldn't work, but then again I'm not that experienced with the press and a complete newbie when it comes to the squat.
 
@SvenRieger please let me know either way - if you don't find the source for this routine, then I will try to look around a bit more myself, too.

-S-
 
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