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Kettlebell How much should one push themselves during S&S?

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LejonBrames

LejonBrames

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Not counting test days.

Now I know S&S is meant to be an easy-strength routine, but someone on the Kettlebell Subreddit recently implied that you shouldn't even be sweating during your S&S, saying you shouldn't fatigue yourself.

Something about this didn't sound right to me. I'm not saying push yourself like you're under a time limit, or to reach beyond your means, but I think I sweat almost every session. Even when resting by feel, and cooling down to a good degree between sets.

I was hoping some more experienced people could weigh in on this. Are you fine as long as you're recovering each day to rise to the occasion again? How much is appropriate to push yourself, and when should you back off?
 
Not experienced, however: As long as you recover from day to day and it is a "recharge" you should be fine.
 
Very good question.

I think it should feel pretty easy when you have been working with a given weight for a while. OTOH, the book suggests to make 8 kg transitions in about a month, so when you are working with the new weight, there is no way its going to feel easy. No matter how much you owned the 24, the 32 will not feel easy a month later. There is some waviness to it, as @Steve Freides described once: you make a sharp increase in weight, which feels hard, and then your body catches up, so it gets easier with time. Then another sharp change followed by your body catching up.

About sweating: if you swing 32 kg and TGU 32 kg in about 20 min, and its hot and humid, you will sweat. Even if you dont push yourself. I dont think sweat is a good measure.
 
I view S&S as similar to easy strength as where you train frequently with submaximal loads (meaning loads slightly above where you can hit test times). I think its OK to bump up the weight here and there, but I think I think a lot of guys just worry about trying to do the routine with heavier bells regardless of their test time with them. When you train with weights that put you close to hitting you test times, you'll find you'll recover better, and be able to train more frequently, and your progress will be more obvious. I also like the idea of testing to time every week ( or at least every 2 weeks). Have at least 1 rest day and/or a deload day. 1. get your # of reps in, 2. Work with weights that will stretch you, but still allow you to hit test times. 3. test time every 1 or 2 weeks. 4. add in heavier sets after you hit time standard.

JMO
 
@Oscar is the month timetable in the S&S book? I'd expect most people to stay on a bell a lot longer than that to really "own" it with perfect form. Everyone's got a different level of fitness. My understanding from the book was to let the body's adaptation guide the progress, and not impose any outside parameters on it. To me, that's part of the genius of the S&S- that it's tailored to each persons own level by using their breathing and individual progress as markers, instead of the EMOM and other things people try to put into it.
 
one tried and true method is the talk test. mild heavy breathing but you could talk normally. If you talk like " OK *frantic breathing* Oh *frantic breathing*" followed by whimpering on the floor, you may have over shot.
 
Maine-ah KB said:
one tried and true method is the talk test. mild heavy breathing but you could talk normally. If you talk like " OK *frantic breathing* Oh *frantic breathing*" followed by whimpering on the floor, you may have over shot.
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I might have misread but doesnt the talk test determine the rest per set time ?
 
yes, the talk test is the method used in the S&S book to tell when you're ready to start the next set. Description above "mild heavy breathing but you could talk normally" is a good one! I think of it from running a lot with buddies- as long as you can bs and carry on while you're running, it's a good training pace. Once people have to pause their sentences to gulp air or quit talking altogether, it's turned into a race.
 
@Shawn90 Yes it is rest per set but to my mind its also a good measure of how hard a set is. If it takes me 3 min to pass the talk test then I over shot on the first set/bunch of sets vs. if im good to go 45 sec latter then I ve selected a good weight, number of reps.
 
From the S+S Summary:

5. Rest long enough between sets to assure no drop-off in technical proficiency, get-up strength and swing power. Progressively but not aggressively reduce the rest intervals.

6. When you reach the 1:1 work-to-rest ratio in one of the exercises—100 total swings in five minutes; ten total get-ups in ten minutes—and can do this strongly almost any day, move up in weight in that exercise. Gradually replace your current training weight with a heavier weight, one set at a time. Go at your own pace; solidify what you have achieved before going further.

Tsatsouline, Pavel. Kettlebell Simple & Sinister (Kindle-Positionen1560-1566). Unknown. Kindle-Version.
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Thus the amount of sweat is not relevant. It's about quality and gradual improvement.
 
@LejonBrames When I did S&S I structured the rest intervals with a timer. I would match an exertion level to a certain rest interval and wave it slightly, pushing the average rest time down week-over-week with 1-2 sessions pushing harder within the week. E.g.:
  • Monday: Set of 10 every 0:55, felt easy
  • Tuesday: Set of 10 every 0:45, moderately difficult
  • Wednesday: Off or EMOM (easy)
  • Thursday: Set of 10 every 0:50, moderate
  • Friday: As many sets of 10 every 0:40, really pushing it. Would take it easier for the remaining sets.
Now that I'm 10+ weeks into an A+A snatch protocol, I'm just tracking the total time to get through the number of repeats for the session and watching the "duration per repeat" go down gradually, but not linearly. Some days I (have to, or force myself to) rest more, some days when all cylinders are firing it ends up EMOM. The range is usually 1:05 to 1:25 per 5-rep repeat @28kg.

I would I say I over-analyzed/over-"programmed" my S&S practice; in retrospect (and what I would tell someone doing it now) is just focus on repeat performance - your last set or two of 10 should look and feel as powerful as your best set of 10 earlier in the session. You will quickly learn your own cues to know when you are ready for a repeat performance.
 
It doesn’t need to be viewed in such a binary way. Most days, you will probably break a light sweat and on some days that you push a little harder, you will sweat more and breathe heavier. There is nothing wrong with pushing yourself. That’s what drives adaptation. I think the point that Pavel wants to drive home is that you shouldn’t be crushing yourself with every workout and in general, you should feel good after training rather than highly fatigued.
 
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This is a good question and something I struggle with. Looking at my training log I passed the time test with 24 kg on 8/1. In transitioning to the 32 kg I found myself having right knee pain around 9/5. I dropped back to completely using 24 kg. I thought it was really strange that I only had right knee pain. Then, the right knee pain went away, and I had left knee pain. Then the left knee pain went away and the right knee pain came back. I thought it was weird that only one knee would hurt me at once and that is when both knees started to hurt at once. Then came the back pain. At this point, it was difficult for me to walk so I stopped training for 2 weeks. It wasn't until 10/15 that the knee pain was completely gone.

I think that I just increased volume way too fast and that's what hurt me. I guess the book advocates for a very, very gradual transition where you only really bump up one of your 10 set's weight every week. I tried to go from doing 100 1H 24 kg swings to 100 2H 32 kg swings. As you can surmise, this did not go well for me. Right now I am transitioning from 24 to 32 without doing any 2H swings and this seems to be going well so far. I am only doing 1H swings with 32 in sets of 5 instead of 10 as well to keep the reps high quality.

I will say this about my kettlebells: I went to buy the cheapest ones I could find on Amazon (Yes4All) and I bought a 50lb and 70lb, so not exactly the same as 24kg and 32kg. The problem is that this company accidentally sent me a 75 lb kettlebell instead of 70. So my transition is from 50 lb to 75 lb instead of like 53 lb to 71 lb. So my "24kg" bell is 50 lbs, and my "32 kg" simple goal kettlebell is 75 lbs. This might have contributed to how I got injured as well because I think it's a pretty big jump.

So don't try to progress too quickly! Take it easy or you may find yourself with pain.
 
The old knee pain......you may be snapping with the knees a little too much, focus on the hips......
There is a tendency to 'pull the kneecaps up' to overly snap the knees before snapping and popping the hips. Of course, it may not be related to you at all, but something to consider perhaps.
 
Maine-ah KB said:
@Shawn90 Yes it is rest per set but to my mind its also a good measure of how hard a set is. If it takes me 3 min to pass the talk test then I over shot on the first set/bunch of sets vs. if im good to go 45 sec latter then I ve selected a good weight, number of reps.
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I totally agree.

My first 2 sets I need like 30 seconds, but the last set might take me up to 2 minutes to normalize breathing.
 
Matts said:
@Oscar is the month timetable in the S&S book? I'd expect most people to stay on a bell a lot longer than that to really "own" it with perfect form. Everyone's got a different level of fitness. My understanding from the book was to let the body's adaptation guide the progress, and not impose any outside parameters on it. To me, that's part of the genius of the S&S- that it's tailored to each persons own level by using their breathing and individual progress as markers, instead of the EMOM and other things people try to put into it.
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Matts, you are right with your interpretation, you shold stick with rhe weight until you own it (maybe several months). The 1 month suggestion in the book is how long the transition takes from one bell to the next, not how long you have to stay with a given weight before starting the transition.
 
@Oscar That makes perfect sense! I see you originally said 'transition' and I didn't get the context. Nothing like a slow and steady transition to build solid, new power while avoiding injury!
 
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