Bodyweight How much tension are you supposed to generate with High Tension Techniques?

[Jason B.]

Do you just generate enough so that everything is turned on? Or do you try to turn everything on so much that you're shaking? Do you ever feel like you're generating fatigue and DOMs from your HTT work? I'm under the impression that HTT shouldn't be stressful, they should leave you recharged, but I can't seem to accomplish that.

The reason I ask is because I've never really gotten HTT to work for me and in the last few years I've been diagnosed with PTSD. In my readings, I've discovered that your body can't distinguish between different types of stress and that might explain why HTT has never felt pleasant to me -- my body had enough stress to deal with and I was just practicing how to generate more stress. Or, I could simply be pushing myself to generate too much tension -- it's easy for me to pursue extremes and miss the point altogether.

 

[Erik Hournou]

I would generate enough that you feel like one piece but not more.
maybe you need to find your sweet spot.

 

[Adam R Mundorf]

Do you just generate enough so that everything is turned on? Or do you try to turn everything on so much that you're shaking? Do you ever feel like you're generating fatigue and DOMs from your HTT work? I'm under the impression that HTT shouldn't be stressful, they should leave you recharged, but I can't seem to accomplish that.

The reason I ask is because I've never really gotten HTT to work for me and in the last few years I've been diagnosed with PTSD. In my readings, I've discovered that your body can't distinguish between different types of stress and that might explain why HTT has never felt pleasant to me -- my body had enough stress to deal with and I was just practicing how to generate more stress. Or, I could simply be pushing myself to generate too much tension -- it's easy for me to pursue extremes and miss the point altogether.

I really don't know about the ptsd stuff. About the tension, you have to practice using just enough tension to complete the lift. You don't want to be overly tense or under tensed, it's a skill. Tension is one side of the coin and the other is relaxation.

As @Erik Hournou said, you may need to find your own personal sweet spot.

I think @Brett Jones once said, "You don't want to be Hardstyle tying your shoes."

 

[Jason B.]

I would generate enough that you feel like one piece but not more.
maybe you need to find your sweet spot.

I really don't know about the ptsd stuff. About the tension, you have to practice using just enough tension to complete the lift. You don't want to be overly tense or under tensed, it's a skill. Tension is one side of the coin and the other is relaxation.

As @Erik Hournou said, you may need to find your own personal sweet spot.

I think @Brett Jones once said, "You don't want to be Hardstyle tying your shoes."

lol thank you so much, that totally answers my question. My extreme-seeking brain walked away from PTTP and NW thinking that you need to learn how to tense your body so hard that it shakes, having as much muscle control as you do flexing your bicep, because maximal contraction is the name of the game.

 

[Erik Hournou]

lol thank you so much, that totally answers my question. My extreme-seeking brain walked away from PTTP and NW thinking that you need to learn how to tense your body so hard that it shakes, having as much muscle control as you do flexing your bicep, because maximal contraction is the name of the game.

Maximal contraction isometrics also have value, but for strength moves it's more of a gymnastic type tension, with scapular depression, tense glutes and abs, firm grip, etc.

 

[bluejeff]

In my readings, I've discovered that your body can't distinguish between different types of stress and that might explain why HTT has never felt pleasant to me

Sorry to hear about the PTSD. I'm no expert on it, but I have an experience that sort of parallels it. I have dystonia in my right hand/wrist, and part of the condition is a typically-overactive sympathetic nervous system. I find that too frequent and/or intense training wipes my energy faster, leaves me stressed out and anxious etc... What helped me was switching to anti-glycolytic training (so what you maybe have been doing with PTTP and NW) and making sure I take the time to relax after training. This means naps, meditation, peaceful walks, etc. Anything to de-escalate my nervous system. I found slow diaphragmatic breathing (belly breathing) to be a good compliment to the high core tension needed for strength training.

This is just my own speculation, but that high core tension might be elevating the sympathetic nervous system because it forces you to breath in a sort of "un-diaphragmatic" way, if that makes sense. Deep diaphragmatic breath stimulates the vagus nerve to calm your nervous system. So belly breathing helps me to reset after training, and in daily life.

I know that's not a direct answer to your question, but perhaps it could be of help to you.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

This is actually a great inquiry and one I pondered today while walking. Tension is a beautiful thing, but so is Paris...until you run out of money.
When I first did PTTP, I had it drilled in my head that my body had to endure the same tension as the victim of a boa constrictor. Id walk out my squats, squeezing every muscle to the point of cramping, if one wasn't tensed, Id tense it immensely. My descent would be so arduous with strain, even with a light weight, and i'd just focus on squeezing every ounce of slack in my muscles to each and every one was tighter then the suspension cables of the Golden Gate Bridge. And you know what? It worked. My squats looked flawless. They had no hint of strain whatsoever in the video's, and no sign of any slack or faulty technique. I eagerly continued on this way, and I gained strength quickly. Because as the weights grew, EVERY SINGLE ONE FELT THE SAME.

This became mentally exhausting however, and over time, I realized I was pretty adept at not focusing on tensing so hard. It'd become second nature. My body learned the proper kinetics to move about the movements while tensing the proper muscles to do the task. I became quite strong, rather quickly. However, in time I noted that tension was a missing ingredient of strength, over time, letting go of the unnecessary tension became absolutely imperative to success. Holding only the required tension: that was the key.

When first learning the planche, immense tension is the only way. Eventually, your body becomes hardwired to do it and the same movement requires less tension. Think of it this way. A seasoned gymnast must go through various exercises of such high degrees of tension that one alone would kill us, yet they transition from planches to iron crosses to handstands to malteses in succession. Do you think these people feel such unbearably high strain on each of these moves as someone squeezing their whole body would? In the beginning, probably yes. As they progresssed...no way. This goes back to the root of saying tension is a skill.

The degree of creating tension reminds me of many Zen like saying. Bruce Lee's quote " "Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick." Is a nice way of looking at. Pavel's "make light weights feel heavy so heavy weights feel light" nicely fits the paradigm as well. And for a little Karate Kid reference, when Mr. Miyagi asks Daniel if Karate is not for fighting, why is he learning Karate and Daniel replies "So I don't have to fight".

 

[Anna C]

Great thread.

I learn at every StrongFirst course/cert how to do tension better.

Second Wind teaches the other side - the speed of relaxation, and techniques for it.

I'm learning as a weightlifter (11 months at it now; barbell snatch, C&J, and variations) that tension must be used very selectively, as it is the enemy of speed.

 

[Erik Hournou]

Great thread.

I learn at every StrongFirst course/cert how to do tension better.

Second Wind teaches the other side - the speed of relaxation, and techniques for it.

I'm learning as a weightlifter (11 months at it now; barbell snatch, C&J, and variations) that tension must be used very selectively, as it is the enemy of speed.

Hmm, makes me think of martial arts, where tension and relaxation must be combined with breathing to perform strikes, blocks, takedowns.
simple in the theory but in the heat of battle it all goes out the window haha!

 

[Brett Jones]

The missing piece for most folks in the HTT techniques is the dominata—you want to produce enough tension to enhance the lift.
If the goal is to press the KB then you generate enough tension to optimize the press and if you over do the tension you can actually inhibit the lift.
How do you find "enough tension to enhance the lift?"
You have to surf the continuum and using a bit too much it is easier to "peel" a bit away to find optimal vs. using too little and having to learn to ramp it up.

Re: HTT and PTSD etc...
This can be factor as sympathetic vs. parasympathetic balance is very important.
If HTT techniques come along with a high degree of excitation then it can crank up the sympathetic response and that does not help PTSD.
Using psyching or excitation techniques is another misunderstood aspect of tension and (to a degree) training in general.
Westside barbell and Louie Simmons had "max effort" days but these were to be done with no psych or excitation.
Psych or excitation is saved for PRs, true max attempts in competition etc...
If you have to get to high levels of excitation to get your Thursday training in then I think it is a good idea to find how to train without that excitation.

As noted by others diaphragmatic breathing and relaxation techniques can be an important part of keeping a better sympathetic/parasympathetic balance.

 

[Anna C]

The missing piece for most folks in the HTT techniques is the dominata—you want to produce enough tension to enhance the lift.
If the goal is to press the KB then you generate enough tension to optimize the press and if you over do the tension you can actually inhibit the lift.
How do you find "enough tension to enhance the lift?"
You have to surf the continuum and using a bit too much it is easier to "peel" a bit away to find optimal vs. using too little and having to learn to ramp it up.

Re: HTT and PTSD etc...
This can be factor as sympathetic vs. parasympathetic balance is very important.
If HTT techniques come along with a high degree of excitation then it can crank up the sympathetic response and that does not help PTSD.
Using psyching or excitation techniques is another misunderstood aspect of tension and (to a degree) training in general.
Westside barbell and Louie Simmons had "max effort" days but these were to be done with no psych or excitation.
Psych or excitation is saved for PRs, true max attempts in competition etc...
If you have to get to high levels of excitation to get your Thursday training in then I think it is a good idea to find how to train without that excitation.

As noted by others diaphragmatic breathing and relaxation techniques can be an important part of keeping a better sympathetic/parasympathetic balance.

GREAT post and makes an important point that there is a strong link between tension and SNS excitation, but they can also be separated to some degree. Both hold a lot of power -- not only over training, but states of being.

These are the subtle skills that Pavel breaks new ground in bringing to people, for those that care to learn from his teachings.

 

[Jason B.]

Sorry to hear about the PTSD. I'm no expert on it, but I have an experience that sort of parallels it. I have dystonia in my right hand/wrist, and part of the condition is a typically-overactive sympathetic nervous system. I find that too frequent and/or intense training wipes my energy faster, leaves me stressed out and anxious etc... What helped me was switching to anti-glycolytic training (so what you maybe have been doing with PTTP and NW) and making sure I take the time to relax after training. This means naps, meditation, peaceful walks, etc. Anything to de-escalate my nervous system. I found slow diaphragmatic breathing (belly breathing) to be a good compliment to the high core tension needed for strength training.

This is just my own speculation, but that high core tension might be elevating the sympathetic nervous system because it forces you to breath in a sort of "un-diaphragmatic" way, if that makes sense. Deep diaphragmatic breath stimulates the vagus nerve to calm your nervous system. So belly breathing helps me to reset after training, and in daily life.

I know that's not a direct answer to your question, but perhaps it could be of help to you.

CNS overactivity is a huge problem for me. Thanks to this forum, though, I discovered the Buteyko method, which is the only thing I've ever found that calms my system down. I don't know if there's anyting special about Buteyko, though; I suspect it might just be that I don't have the energy to be in fight/flight/freeze mode when I'm in the middle of hypoxia.

On a related note, I was just rereading all my old Pavel books and I think it's in ETK that he describes the straw method, which I'm pretty sure is basically the Buteyko method. I could have figured this out a decade ago if I just would have tried breathing through a straw.

 

[Jason B.]

This is actually a great inquiry and one I pondered today while walking. Tension is a beautiful thing, but so is Paris...until you run out of money.
When I first did PTTP, I had it drilled in my head that my body had to endure the same tension as the victim of a boa constrictor. Id walk out my squats, squeezing every muscle to the point of cramping, if one wasn't tensed, Id tense it immensely. My descent would be so arduous with strain, even with a light weight, and i'd just focus on squeezing every ounce of slack in my muscles to each and every one was tighter then the suspension cables of the Golden Gate Bridge. And you know what? It worked. My squats looked flawless. They had no hint of strain whatsoever in the video's, and no sign of any slack or faulty technique. I eagerly continued on this way, and I gained strength quickly. Because as the weights grew, EVERY SINGLE ONE FELT THE SAME.

This became mentally exhausting however, and over time, I realized I was pretty adept at not focusing on tensing so hard. It'd become second nature. My body learned the proper kinetics to move about the movements while tensing the proper muscles to do the task. I became quite strong, rather quickly. However, in time I noted that tension was a missing ingredient of strength, over time, letting go of the unnecessary tension became absolutely imperative to success. Holding only the required tension: that was the key.

When first learning the planche, immense tension is the only way. Eventually, your body becomes hardwired to do it and the same movement requires less tension. Think of it this way. A seasoned gymnast must go through various exercises of such high degrees of tension that one alone would kill us, yet they transition from planches to iron crosses to handstands to malteses in succession. Do you think these people feel such unbearably high strain on each of these moves as someone squeezing their whole body would? In the beginning, probably yes. As they progresssed...no way. This goes back to the root of saying tension is a skill.

The degree of creating tension reminds me of many Zen like saying. Bruce Lee's quote " "Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick." Is a nice way of looking at. Pavel's "make light weights feel heavy so heavy weights feel light" nicely fits the paradigm as well. And for a little Karate Kid reference, when Mr. Miyagi asks Daniel if Karate is not for fighting, why is he learning Karate and Daniel replies "So I don't have to fight".

Yes, this "maximum tension so all weights feel the same" is what I thought I was trying to accomplish. I stopped doing the HTT stuff for about 18 months and had a funny realization. As I was doing it, I wasn't really blown away by my strength skills, but resuming high tension work after an long layoff was sort of a shock because of how rusty the basic skill had become. I had become much better at it than I ever realized.

 

[Jason B.]

Great thread.

I learn at every StrongFirst course/cert how to do tension better.

Second Wind teaches the other side - the speed of relaxation, and techniques for it.

I'm learning as a weightlifter (11 months at it now; barbell snatch, C&J, and variations) that tension must be used very selectively, as it is the enemy of speed.

What's this Second Wind thing? It sounds like something I should look into.

 

[Jason B.]

The missing piece for most folks in the HTT techniques is the dominata—you want to produce enough tension to enhance the lift.
If the goal is to press the KB then you generate enough tension to optimize the press and if you over do the tension you can actually inhibit the lift.
How do you find "enough tension to enhance the lift?"
You have to surf the continuum and using a bit too much it is easier to "peel" a bit away to find optimal vs. using too little and having to learn to ramp it up.

Re: HTT and PTSD etc...
This can be factor as sympathetic vs. parasympathetic balance is very important.
If HTT techniques come along with a high degree of excitation then it can crank up the sympathetic response and that does not help PTSD.
Using psyching or excitation techniques is another misunderstood aspect of tension and (to a degree) training in general.
Westside barbell and Louie Simmons had "max effort" days but these were to be done with no psych or excitation.
Psych or excitation is saved for PRs, true max attempts in competition etc...
If you have to get to high levels of excitation to get your Thursday training in then I think it is a good idea to find how to train without that excitation.

As noted by others diaphragmatic breathing and relaxation techniques can be an important part of keeping a better sympathetic/parasympathetic balance.

Yeah, this CNS excitation thing is something I was doing to myself without realizing it. I'm designing my workout for the next few months and I think I'm going to really focus on tension mastery -- generating it, but (more importantly for me) also releasing it. A few years ago, I found some old articles by Nate Morrison about eustress training (as opposed to distress training) and was really intrigued by it. Since then, I've found Paul Chek's work and Dan/Pavel's book Easy Strength, which talk about lifting without excitation.

 

[Anna C]

What's this Second Wind thing? It sounds like something I should look into.

StrongFirst: Training Center

Achieve superior performance, resilience, and grace under pressure through breathing mastery. Accept no pseudoscience or psychobabble—learn state-of-the-art techniques from the arsenal of Russian athletes and special forces.

www.strongfirst.com

There is only one on the schedule currently, but there's a ton of information there on the page. Let me know if you have any specific questions, I'll delve into my notes and manual. It was a great event, I attended in Seattle last November.

 

[Jason B.]

GREAT post and makes an important point that there is a strong link between tension and SNS excitation, but they can also be separated to some degree. Both hold a lot of power -- not only over training, but states of being.

These are the subtle skills that Pavel breaks new ground in bringing to people, for those that care to learn from his teachings.

I was browsing some posts on Kit Laughlin's forums awhile ago and they were talking about increasing their flexibility by stretching while increasing feelings of safety within themselves. As their neural inhibitions relaxed, they easily slid into extreme stretches. They talked about feeling so serene that they fell into a state of wakeful sleeping. That directly spoke to me as I could see how that type of mental training would directly benefit my issues with PTSD and have slowly been unlocking the secrets of convincing my mind that it's safe. As I'm rereading Pavel's old books, I'm realizing there are kernels of these training ideas there as long as I know what to look for. The first time I read his books I was completely gung ho to generate maximum strength and missed all the details about conscious relaxation.

 

[Jason B.]

StrongFirst: Training Center

Achieve superior performance, resilience, and grace under pressure through breathing mastery. Accept no pseudoscience or psychobabble—learn state-of-the-art techniques from the arsenal of Russian athletes and special forces.

www.strongfirst.com

There is only one on the schedule currently, but there's a ton of information there on the page. Let me know if you have any specific questions, I'll delve into my notes and manual. It was a great event, I attended in Seattle last November.

Thank you for the link! I'll give it a browse tonight.

 

[Anna C]

I was browsing some posts on Kit Laughlin's forums awhile ago and they were talking about increasing their flexibility by stretching while increasing feelings of safety within themselves. As their neural inhibitions relaxed, they easily slid into extreme stretches. They talked about feeling so serene that they fell into a state of wakeful sleeping. That directly spoke to me as I could see how that type of mental training would directly benefit my issues with PTSD and have slowly been unlocking the secrets of convincing my mind that it's safe. As I'm rereading Pavel's old books, I'm realizing there are kernels of these training ideas there as long as I know what to look for. The first time I read his books I was completely gung ho to generate maximum strength and missed all the details about conscious relaxation.

Yes, breathing is a powerful tool when stretching and will unlock a greater degree of relaxation in the muscles.

Try this in your next stretching session: elongate your exhale to twice as long as usual by restricting the airflow in your throat (like a Darth Vader breath). Pause after your exhale and don't breathe until you actually feel a moderate need to. Then let it be a deep breath, taken in at regular inhale speed, then elongate the exhale again, pause again, and continue that pattern for 5-15 minutes while you sink deeper into your stretches. If you happen to have a pulse oximeter (they're less than $20, and maybe a handy thing to have on hand in these COVID days!), you'll see your blood oxygen go from the normal 95-97 down to the low 90s. This is hypercapnic breathing, which is slightly elevated levels of CO2. Lots of benefits, but you'll see them immediately in your stretching, and you'll feel deliciously relaxed.