Discussion in 'Barbell' started by Eryk, Oct 5, 2018.
Haha, been there, done that
@Bill Been, these are relevant to this friendly discussion I believe
There is a goldilocks zone of strength and punching, I go back to speed breaking boards, hold 3-4 boards at arms length and drop the boards while simultaneously punching. The holding hand drops and retracts while the reverse punching hand breaks the boards.
IMHO this is a true test of punching 'force'. Too much is too much and at some point excess muscle/strength will slow you down.
Can the stronger you ram your fist through boards fixed in place? Absolutely, but can the puncher generate enough speed to slam through the middle of the un-held boards so fast that the outer portion of the boards can't move fast enough to avoid a bending and ultimate breaking in the middle?
Speed combined with the power is where a karate punch becomes very dangerous. I've been hit and dropped to my knees feeling nothing initially, only hearing the breath leave my body involuntarily, after which my body shut down and I lost muscle control in my legs, then after some time felt pain in my back behind the punched zone, the front remained numb for days. The circumstances leading up to this event I won't discuss here, I'm just sharing my personal experience.
It took 2 years before I felt somewhat normal again in my gut, though I think it did life long damage ultimately. I still have diaphragm problems.
If that punch had penetrated 1" deeper I would have been in serious trouble with internal bleeding.
There is a big difference between the two punches described above. Speed + power = penetration at a pace you can't time with flexing abdominals or withstand, it's just too fast, if you pre-flex abdominals it's no protection. This is my experience.
The hardest hitter I've ever met had an abundance of both strength and technique. You need both without question. It seems the importance of technique and proper practice gets understated sometimes but punching, and fighting in general, is an athletic activity.
I keep coming back to this:
Punching power involves use of the entire body to propel the limb. Once it gets moving it rapidly exceeds the contraction speed of the peripheral muscles and only the added mass from increased musculature is going to be a factor.
If you're driving it the entire path you are not striking as fast as you could = not as powerful no matter how strong you are.
The lock up on impact is again a whole body thing and far more technique and practice than strength, and what strength is applicable is mostly core and not explosive or limit.
A stronger person compared to a fit person of equal lean mass there will be no real difference in striking power. Only if technique is equally lacking will limit strength come into it.
Agreed, I felt clunky when benching in low 400's, power? sure but not transferable to any meaningful degree.
These discussions are often ego clouded,
'I'm stronger than you.. I can obviously punch harder'...
This horse is by now a grease spot..
I'll just continue doing what I do.. because that's what I do..
Thank you for your long responses. I appreciate it.
I have one question too.. How many ounches in the air with 2/3 kg dumbbell should I do if I dont want to loose even one percent of my strength?
Do you have a heavy bag?
I think form practice plus heavy bag work would be a good start. And follow a good, basic strength program. Don't forget to strengthen core and wrists.
I meant, I dont want to have less strength in strength training because of my punches work so I asked how many should I train ti not loose my strength. I know that endurance training can reduce strength so I asked about that.
Many of the old timers lifted hard and heavy, and then went for a jog. Adding some endurance training won't cause you a reduction in strength so much as it might impact your recovery if you overdo it.
We're all telling you the same thing - get better at punching by practicing punching, and get stronger overall by following a general strength program, and if you want conditioning, follow a strength and conditioning program. I guarantee you that even a little general strength and conditioning training will make a difference, e.g., give me two identical copies of you, and if one of you does even something like 25 kettlebell swings every day (or 50 every other day, or 100 twice or three times per week), the swinger will show noticeable improvement in the ring.
It's that simple.
Irrespective of what you priorities are...
To increase your punching power, punch the heavy bag. A LOT. And don’t use external load (dumbbells or anything else). Ever.
To increase your strength, just follow any general strengh routine (barbells, dumbbells, kettlebells, bodyweight...). And don’t try to “replicate” the punching motion. Ever.
Okay Steve. I was wonder if my strength gains and progress in calisthenic workout will slow down because of other training, in that case its punching training.
Okay, so I will practice. And yes, I know that it will be better to practice punch with light dumbbells, not big weights dumbbells.. I asked about this in the beginning of this topic, I asked now about something different. I just wanted to know if punching training will slow down effects of my strength training, but if everything will be good and punching training will not slow down progress in strength training - okay, so I will practice strength training and little punching training.
A few rounds on the heavy bag is quite different than the type of endurance training that can affect your strength. If you work yourself to exhaustion that could affect your recovery so ease into it and see how you feel.
Per the above, do none.
If you are doing footwork drills you could hold light dumbbells, small bags of shot etc in your hands up posture. This mostly for beginners but good for anyone who drops their hands following a punch or just moving around.
When working the bag focus on relaxing the antagonist muscles as much as possible, let the weight of the limb sink into the bag. Then work on increasing speed.
Punching will not appreciably effect strength training, used as your warmup it will help.
Too much focus on strength will slow down punching speed.
There is a nice middle path of strength and speed.
Take notes and record progress and impresions, change things up if you feel like you're slowing down.
Learn to punch well first, then go after increasing strength.
Old-school general strength preparation for boxing
Inch’s Dumbbell Program Minimum for Boxing [1 of 2]: The Dumbbell Swing | SIMPLEXSTRONG
Me too. This is going to be like a broken record until someone appears that recommends punching with dumbbells, confirming the only thing he is open to listen to.
Gentlemans - I will do punching with 1-2kg dumbbells as I said and heavy bag plus shadow boxing for punching and of course my strength training. Maybe I will upload here some records video about my speed and stremgth of punching.
Thank you for your responses.
Please don’t as we all said.
Separate names with a comma.