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Bodyweight How would you program "extreme isometrics"? (weird but hella interesting, I promise)

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Extreme Isometrics are seven unweighted isometric holds at the most stretched position (dead hangs, lunges, push-ups, wall squats, good mornings, dips and bicep curls) that you train yourself to hold for 5 minutes.
Extreme Isometrics

First of all, I don't quit see the value in it.

Unweight Holds

Many of the "Seven" are Streching rather than an Isometric. An Isometric involves involves a Static Hold in some type of partial movement, so as to maintain the same position and trying to contract the musles in the movement.

Holds For 5 Minutes

Not much Strength is produce or developed with an Isometric Hold for 5 Minutes.

Maxium Strength occurs in some type of Max Effort that last around 15 seconds.

A Hold For 5 Minute shifts the workload from the Fast Twitch Type II Muscle Fibers to the Slow Type 1 Muscle Fiber.

Also, there is an Inverse Relationship between Time and Intensity.

As Time goes Up, Intensity goes Down.

these ever-deepening holds will also increase any limitations you have due to flexibility

Increasing Flexibility

Lenghty Stretching will increase Flexibility. It amount to using a Sledge Hammer to kill a fly.

Another method that is even more effective is...

Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation (PNF)

Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation (PNF) is an advanced form of flexibility training, which involves both the stretching and contracting of the muscle group being targeted. PNF stretching is one of the most effective forms of stretching for improving flexibility and increasing range of motion.

unstoppable endurance,

Minutely

Endurance has to do with increasing your VO2 Max and your Lactate Threshold. Not much of that is going to happen with 5 minute stretching.

hypertrophy (I've seen this attributed to both Occlusion Training and mTor activation...

Again, Minutely

Hypertrophy in part occcurs with "The Pump.

In a Traditioinal Bodybuilding Set, Moderate or High Repetiions increase blood flow to the muscle (Arterial Blood Flow).

The Contraction of the Muscle restricts blood flow from the Muscle back to the heart (Venous Blood Flood).

More and more blood becomes trapped, increasing the size of the Muscles; similar to blowing up a balloon.

When this occurs, the downstream effect is that it triggers an anabolic effect.

While maintaining the Muscle in a Lengthy Strength Postion for time does restrict some blood flow, only a negligible Pump is obtain.

Some mTOR may occur.

Other Trainining Protocols are more effective at elicting Hypertrophy and triggering mTOR.

With that said, I am a proponet of...

Isometric and Funtional Isometrics

Both these method allow one to selective develop Maximum Strength 15 degree above and below where Isometric is performed.
 
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Extreme Isometrics

First of all, I don't quit see the value in it.

Unweight Holds

Many of the "Seven" are Streching rather than an Isometric. An Isometric involves involves a Static Hold in some type of partial movement, so as to maintain the same position and trying to contract the musles in the movement.

Holds For 5 Minutes

Not much Strength is produce or developed with an Isometric Hold for 5 Minutes.

Maxium Strength occurs in some type of Max Effort that last around 15 seconds.

A Hold For 5 Minute shifts the workload from the Fast Twitch Type II Muscle Fibers to the Slow Type 1 Muscle Fiber.

Also, there is an Inverse Relationship between Time and Intensity.

As Time goes Up, Intensity goes Down.



Increasing Flexibility

Lenghty Stretching will increase Flexibility. It amount to using a Sledge Hammer to kill a fly.

Another method that is even more effective is...

Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation (PNF)

Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation (PNF) is an advanced form of flexibility training, which involves both the stretching and contracting of the muscle group being targeted. PNF stretching is one of the most effective forms of stretching for improving flexibility and increasing range of motion.



Minutely

Endurance has to do with increasing your VO2 Max and your Lactate Threshold. Not much of that is going to happen with 5 minute stretching.



Again, Minutely

Hypertrophy in part occcurs with "The Pump.

In a Traditioinal Bodybuilding Set, Moderate or High Repetiions increase blood flow to the muscle (Arterial Blood Flow).

The Contraction of the Muscle restricts blood flow from the Muscle back to the heart (Venous Blood Flood).

More and more blood becomes trapped, increasing the size of the Muscles; similar to blowing up a balloon.

When this occurs, the downstream effect is that it triggers an anabolic effect.

While maintaining the Muscle in a Lengthy Strength Postion for time does restrict some blood flow, only a negligible Pump is obtain.

Some mTOR may occur.

Other Trainining Protocols are more effective at elicting Hypertrophy and triggering mTOR.

With that said, I am a proponet of...

Isometric and Funtional Isometrics

Both these method allow one to selective develop Maximum Strength 15 degree above and below where Isometric is performed.

This is what I've read:

These are actually slow eccentrics as you're continually pulling yourself deeper and deeper into the hold.

The value is in repatterning your muscle functions to correct compensations and imbalances. For some people. like me, their great value in how our nervous system reacts to the holds.

When a muscle is exhausted, it's fully contracted and cannot reset itself. Supposedly, training these holds with your muscles at the most lengthened position will give them great recuperative abilities when you're exhausted. I've read multiple accounts of people who achieved the five minute holds and can shake off complete muscle exhaustion in minutes.

Hypertophy is occurring, whether from mTor or occlusion. Not minute hypertophy, either. I've put on some considerable size in certain muscle groups.

Isometrics convey strength to the entire ROM, not just 15 degrees, when you build strength in its fully lengthened position.

While it is not possible to generate your maximum amount of tension for five minutes, it is possible to pull with the entire amount of force you are capable of at that moment. That intent to pull as hard as you can seems to be key.
 
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These are actually slow eccentrics as you're continually pulling yourself deeper and deeper into the hold.
Slow Eccentrics

Here are some of the thing we know, about Eccentrics...

Strength and Hypertrophy is develop to a much greater degee with a Faster Eccenntric than a Slow Eccentric Action.

Short-term high- vs. low-velocity isokinetic lengthening training results in greater hypertrophy of the elbow flexors in young men
https://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/japplphysiol.01027.2004

...higher velocity (3.66 rad/s) isokinetic lengthening contractions are associated with greater muscular hypertrophy than slower (0.35 rad/s) velocity lengthening contractions.

We observed, despite a >10-fold lower mean torque-time integral (Fig. 6), a greater degree of hypertrophy (Fig. 3) with a training protocol that involved only high velocity lengthening contractions.

Fiber type-specific changes after eccentric training

https://www.patreon.com/posts/fiber-type-after-28196633

Not every type of eccentric training causes preferential increases in type II muscle fiber area, and some types actually cause type I muscle fiber area to increase more!

#2. Preferential type I muscle fiber hypertrophy

...when slow eccentric phases are used during normal strength training, this causes increased type I muscle fiber size, ...

Slowing down and eccentric does not enhancement or recruitment so it is not "eccentric overload". It only increases time under tension.

Research shows the slow negatives do not elicit the most effective response.

Slow eccentrics for growth? - Dan Ogborn

Dan Osborne found that with eccentrics/negatives are....

1) "...greater following high rather than slow velocity eccentric actions (29)."

2) "...as far as strength was concerned, fast eccentric actions were superior."

3) "...growth of type IIa and IIx fibres was greater with fast eccentric actions."

Negatives: You're Doing Them Wrong

https://www.t-nation.com/training/ne...ing-them-wrong

As per Chris Thibaudeau...

1) ..."going slower will not improve the stimulatory affect of the eccentric. ...it won't recruit and stimulate more fast-twitch fibers."

2) "The Essential Points: Focus on heavy and controlled, not on moderate weights lowered slowly."

Hypertophy is occurring, whether from mTor or occlusion. Not minute hypertophy, either. I've put on some considerable size in certain muscle groups.

What Research Information

Sound interesting. Please post some of the reasearch data that goes into that

Hypertophy is occurring, whether from mTor or occlusion.

Stretching For Hypertropy

Yes, Stretching can assist with Hypertrophy.

1) Stretching Between Sets Boosts Muscle Growth
Dr. Michael Ruldolph

...scientific evidence indicates that certain activities, like stretching, during the rest period could significantly contribute to the positive influence that resistance training has on muscle hypertrophy...

...scientific evidence indicates that stretching during the rest phase enhances the hypertrophic adaptation of the muscle.

...stretching during the rest period positively influences muscle growth, some studies have shown that too much stretching may have a negative impact on strength and power.

Wilson-How I Can Grow Like Crazy!

Ask The Muscle Prof: What Training Technique Produces The Craziest Muscle Growth?
Dr. Jacob Wison

The athletes began with a weight they could lift 12-15 times until failure. However, instead of resting between sets, they let the weight from the leg press stretch their calves for 30 seconds. They repeated this process three times, dropping the weight after each stretch.

After 5 weeks we found that the stretching group doubled the muscle gains of the non-stretching group! Here's what we now believe to be the case:
  • The key to stretch-induced growth is to create both a large amount of mechanical tension and muscle damage.
  • The stretch placed upon a muscle fiber seems to be greatest after an individual has achieved significant cell swelling, or pump.
After this swelling has been increased, we believe that intermittent stretching would have its greatest chance to work.

Putting it to work for you​

As you can imagine, stretching is a part of a normal lift. Specifically, exercises which place a muscle in its extreme range of motion—such as incline dumbbell curls for the biceps—increase mechanical strain, and thus, hypertrophy.7

However, based on the evidence above, it seems clear to us that some amount of weighted intermittent stretching is even more effective at increasing muscle growth, even in muscle groups as stubborn as the calves.

Loaded Stretches

Exericse that involves a Load Stretch appear elicit a greater response; such as Hanging from a Pull Up Bar, Sitting in a bottom of a Full Squat with a loaded bar on one's back, Dumbbell Bench Press with that Dumbbells at the bottom of the movement, etc.

Full Range Resistance Exercises for Repetition provide a Loaded Stretch in the bottom part of the Movement.

Stretch Time

1) Wilson recommended 30 Second Stretches.

2) Thibaudeau has recommended 45-75 Second Stretches.

Not minute hypertophy, either. I've put on some considerable size in certain muscle groups

Considerable Size

While Stretching appears to assist with Hypertrophy, it seems that its effectiveness is in conjunction with additional training factors. As Wilson and Thibaudea noted, after obtaining, "The Pump".

With that said, please define what connotates Considerable Size? How many inches are centimeters did you gain?

Isometrics convey strength to the entire ROM, not just 15 degrees, when you build strength in its fully lengthened position.

Isometrics Are Range Specific

Iisometric Strength Training produces strength to a greater degree in Specific Ranges.

Specifically, in a range that is 15% above and 15% below where the Isometric is being performed rather than the "Entire Range of the Movement".

Isometric Training: What It Is And How To Do It Correctly

"Mel Siff noted in his book Supertraining:

…isometric training also produces significant strength increase over a range of up to as much as 15 degrees on either side of the training angle."

The Theory And Application of Modern Strength

Chris Thibaudeau

"...Strength gained in a 20-degree range (working angle +/- 20 degrees)."

While there's a slight differences in ranges above. the point is that it is occurs in a tight range rather the Full Range of Motion.

The same is true with Partial Strength Exercises, as well.

Strength Training in a Partical Range of a Movement ensure Strength is trained and developed in that specific range.

That is the primary reason that a well written Isomtric Strength Training Program for developing Strength through the Full Range of Motion involves Isometrics performed from the Low Position of a Movement, Mid Range and the Top End.

The Beneifit of Specific Isometric Range Training

It allows individual to focus on developing Maximum Strength in the Sticking Point a Movement.

While it is not possible to generate your maximum amount of tension for five minutes, it is possible to pull with the entire amount of force you are capable of at that moment. That intent to pull as hard as you can seems to be key.

The Inverse Relationship

There is an Inverse Realationship between Time and Intensity.

As Time Increases, Intenstuy Decreases.

That is why a 10 second, 100 meter Track Sprinter cannot maintain that time in a 1500 meter event.

IF a Sprinter could push it that hard, 10 seconds per 100 meters for 1500 meters, they'd run the mile in 2 minutes and 30 seconds.

Thus, 5 Minutes of trying to "Pull as hard as you can" in an Isometric isn't going to happen.

Getting Some Training Effect

If your getting something out of the Extreme...great.
 
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Just to play devils advocate to one method of loaded stretching that we see bring results often....the farmers walk.

Strong men tend not to walk with traps flexed, then sit as naturally as possible, which tends to be down and back. In this position the upper traps are in a stretched position....although I have no doubt there trap size is also the result of heavy dead, shrugs etc....the merits of the farmers walk loaded stretch cannot be ignored.

Richard
 
...one method of loaded stretching that we see bring results often....the farmers walk.
Loaded Strentches

While The Farmers Walk provides a Loaded Stretch for the Trap, so does...

1) Standing and Holding Heavy Dumbbells or a Heavy Barbell.

2) Kettlebell Swings

3) Deadlifts

Shrugs

I am not fan of Traditioinal Shrugs for Trap Training; it's a crap exercise.

With that said, one of the best Trap Training Movements is Olympic Low Pulls to the waist height and High Pulls to around chest height.

The momentum generated in pulling the weight off the off Overloads the Traps throught a greater range of the movement.

The key to this method of trap development is the movement speed and rate of force development in the clean pull. The speed causes an insane amount of muscle activation and type II fiber growth, leading to traps so big they restrict hearing. " 9 Reasons to Olympic Lift For a Better Physique | T NATION

Olympic Weightlifters Traps

 
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Loaded Strentches

While The Farmers Walk provides a Loaded Stretch for the Trap, so does...

1) Standing and Holding Heavy Dumbbells or a Heavy Barbell.

2) Kettlebell Swings

3) Deadlifts

Shrugs

I am not fan of Traditioinal Shrugs for Trap Training; it's a crap exercise.

With that said, one of the best Trap Training Movements is Olympic Low Pulls to the waist height and High Pulls to around chest height.

The momentum generated in pulling the weight off the off Overloads the Traps throught a greater range of the movement.

The key to this method of trap development is the movement speed and rate of force development in the clean pull. The speed causes an insane amount of muscle activation and type II fiber growth, leading to traps so big they restrict hearing. " 9 Reasons to Olympic Lift For a Better Physique | T NATION

Olympic Weightlifters Traps


I think you're agreeing with me, but I am not 100% sure haha.
 
I think you're agreeing with me, but I am not 100% sure haha.
Basically, Yes.

The Farmer's Walk does provide some Trap Stretch Loading.

However, Loaded Stretching for the Traps with the Farmer's Walk provides an ancillary training effect. rather being than the primariy objective of the exercise.

It is similar to individual who perform Repetition with the Deadift to improve their Holding Grip Strength rather for what the Deadlift is designed for, to increase Posterior Chain Strength and/or Hyperterophy.
 
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I literally cannot describe how crazy strong I feel now that my entire upper body is jumping into overhead pressing.
I forgot to ask you about this: I know that it's anecdotal, but does this mean that you saw an increase in overhead strength from doing these isometric dips and pushup holds?
 
Jason....

Tonight I did:
Long ISO lunge -
Left leg forwards = 3.20
Right leg forwards = 3.22 *

Bottom of pushup = 2.05

Hanging = 50

* funny here - I started the clock on this second leg and what I think was roughly 45-60 seconds in, I noticed that the tier hadn't started haha. Gave it about 5 minutes and did it for real.

Richard
 
Slow Eccentrics

Here are some of the thing we know, about Eccentrics...

Strength and Hypertrophy is develop to a much greater degee with a Faster Eccenntric than a Slow Eccentric Action.

Short-term high- vs. low-velocity isokinetic lengthening training results in greater hypertrophy of the elbow flexors in young men
https://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/japplphysiol.01027.2004

...higher velocity (3.66 rad/s) isokinetic lengthening contractions are associated with greater muscular hypertrophy than slower (0.35 rad/s) velocity lengthening contractions.

We observed, despite a >10-fold lower mean torque-time integral (Fig. 6), a greater degree of hypertrophy (Fig. 3) with a training protocol that involved only high velocity lengthening contractions.

Fiber type-specific changes after eccentric training

https://www.patreon.com/posts/fiber-type-after-28196633

Not every type of eccentric training causes preferential increases in type II muscle fiber area, and some types actually cause type I muscle fiber area to increase more!

#2. Preferential type I muscle fiber hypertrophy

...when slow eccentric phases are used during normal strength training, this causes increased type I muscle fiber size, ...

Slowing down and eccentric does not enhancement or recruitment so it is not "eccentric overload". It only increases time under tension.

Research shows the slow negatives do not elicit the most effective response.

Slow eccentrics for growth? - Dan Ogborn

Dan Osborne found that with eccentrics/negatives are....

1) "...greater following high rather than slow velocity eccentric actions (29)."

2) "...as far as strength was concerned, fast eccentric actions were superior."

3) "...growth of type IIa and IIx fibres was greater with fast eccentric actions."

Negatives: You're Doing Them Wrong

https://www.t-nation.com/training/ne...ing-them-wrong

As per Chris Thibaudeau...

1) ..."going slower will not improve the stimulatory affect of the eccentric. ...it won't recruit and stimulate more fast-twitch fibers."

2) "The Essential Points: Focus on heavy and controlled, not on moderate weights lowered slowly."



What Research Information


Sound interesting. Please post some of the reasearch data that goes into that



Stretching For Hypertropy

Yes, Stretching can assist with Hypertrophy.

1) Stretching Between Sets Boosts Muscle Growth
Dr. Michael Ruldolph

...scientific evidence indicates that certain activities, like stretching, during the rest period could significantly contribute to the positive influence that resistance training has on muscle hypertrophy...

...scientific evidence indicates that stretching during the rest phase enhances the hypertrophic adaptation of the muscle.

...stretching during the rest period positively influences muscle growth, some studies have shown that too much stretching may have a negative impact on strength and power.

Wilson-How I Can Grow Like Crazy!

Ask The Muscle Prof: What Training Technique Produces The Craziest Muscle Growth?
Dr. Jacob Wison

The athletes began with a weight they could lift 12-15 times until failure. However, instead of resting between sets, they let the weight from the leg press stretch their calves for 30 seconds. They repeated this process three times, dropping the weight after each stretch.

After 5 weeks we found that the stretching group doubled the muscle gains of the non-stretching group! Here's what we now believe to be the case:
  • The key to stretch-induced growth is to create both a large amount of mechanical tension and muscle damage.
  • The stretch placed upon a muscle fiber seems to be greatest after an individual has achieved significant cell swelling, or pump.
After this swelling has been increased, we believe that intermittent stretching would have its greatest chance to work.

Putting it to work for you​

As you can imagine, stretching is a part of a normal lift. Specifically, exercises which place a muscle in its extreme range of motion—such as incline dumbbell curls for the biceps—increase mechanical strain, and thus, hypertrophy.7

However, based on the evidence above, it seems clear to us that some amount of weighted intermittent stretching is even more effective at increasing muscle growth, even in muscle groups as stubborn as the calves.

Loaded Stretches

Exericse that involves a Load Stretch appear elicit a greater response; such as Hanging from a Pull Up Bar, Sitting in a bottom of a Full Squat with a loaded bar on one's back, Dumbbell Bench Press with that Dumbbells at the bottom of the movement, etc.

Full Range Resistance Exercises for Repetition provide a Loaded Stretch in the bottom part of the Movement.

Stretch Time

1) Wilson recommended 30 Second Stretches.

2) Thibaudeau has recommended 45-75 Second Stretches.



Considerable Size

While Stretching appears to assist with Hypertrophy, it seems that its effectiveness is in conjunction with additional training factors. As Wilson and Thibaudea noted, after obtaining, "The Pump".

With that said, please define what connotates Considerable Size? How many inches are centimeters did you gain?



Isometrics Are Range Specific

Iisometric Strength Training produces strength to a greater degree in Specific Ranges.

Specifically, in a range that is 15% above and 15% below where the Isometric is being performed rather than the "Entire Range of the Movement".

Isometric Training: What It Is And How To Do It Correctly

"Mel Siff noted in his book Supertraining:

…isometric training also produces significant strength increase over a range of up to as much as 15 degrees on either side of the training angle."

The Theory And Application of Modern Strength

Chris Thibaudeau

"...Strength gained in a 20-degree range (working angle +/- 20 degrees)."

While there's a slight differences in ranges above. the point is that it is occurs in a tight range rather the Full Range of Motion.

The same is true with Partial Strength Exercises, as well.

Strength Training in a Partical Range of a Movement ensure Strength is trained and developed in that specific range.

That is the primary reason that a well written Isomtric Strength Training Program for developing Strength through the Full Range of Motion involves Isometrics performed from the Low Position of a Movement, Mid Range and the Top End.

The Beneifit of Specific Isometric Range Training

It allows individual to focus on developing Maximum Strength in the Sticking Point a Movement.



The Inverse Relationship

There is an Inverse Realationship between Time and Intensity.

As Time Increases, Intenstuy Decreases.

That is why a 10 second, 100 meter Track Sprinter cannot maintain that time in a 1500 meter event.

IF a Sprinter could push it that hard, 10 seconds per 100 meters for 1500 meters, they'd run the mile in 2 minutes and 30 seconds.

Thus, 5 Minutes of trying to "Pull as hard as you can" in an Isometric isn't going to happen.

Getting Some Training Effect

If your getting something out of the Extreme...great.

Hmmn. You are literally not paying attention to the things I'm typing. This is most apparent when I explain that you're not going to sustain your highest tension for five minutes, but it is possible for you to exert yourself to the limit of your diminishing capabilities, and there you go babbling about the inverse relationship between time and intensity.

Everyone else here can watch me say, "this is what I'm experimenting with, these are the claims being made, this is why it appeals to me and these are the results I've seen" and can offer useful, intelligent advice and criticism.

You're certainly not answering my question about programming extreme isometrics.

As for isometric angles, this is the first thing I turned up. It's a pretty big list of studies showing isometric strength gains aren't limited to a certain part of the ROM. If you disagree with it, I don't want to hear about it.



Please don't respond with another long post of links and explanations that are mostly irrelevant to what we're talking about because that really isn't helpful.
 
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Jason....

Tonight I did:
Long ISO lunge -
Left leg forwards = 3.20
Right leg forwards = 3.22 *

Bottom of pushup = 2.05

Hanging = 50

* funny here - I started the clock on this second leg and what I think was roughly 45-60 seconds in, I noticed that the tier hadn't started haha. Gave it about 5 minutes and did it for real.

Richard
I'm impressed at your 3:20 times for lunges! And that push-up time is pretty impressive, too.

I recently got the hang of "pulling" into the lunges and they feel so much easier, my holds increased by almost a minute. I'm very near that three minute barrier and my quads are doing so much less work while my butt is doing so much more. This is the biggest benefit I've found from these holds so far -- fixing imbalances.

And my push-ups got so much harder! My entire upper body is putting in some effort now. Before I had my hands too close to my armpits and was only feeling it in my chest.
 
I forgot to ask you about this: I know that it's anecdotal, but does this mean that you saw an increase in overhead strength from doing these isometric dips and pushup holds?
Yep. After years of kettlebell pressing, I THOUGHT I knew what it meant to pack the shoulders, but now I know what it means when my lats and especially my traps join the party. I'm lifting bells I haven't pressed in years.

I credit the holds, but the holds weren't doing anything until I started thinking about posture. The extreme iso guys talk about the importance of posture (since you're trying to repattern your body) so I practised posture and realized I could hold it fairly well unloaded, but lost it in subtle ways under load, ways I've never noticed and no one has ever pointed out to me.

Tommy John said something along the lines of that your hips and belly are going to sag at the bottom of a push-up extrene iso because you're in pain and you brain isn't going to prioritize sending energy there. Teaching my body to maintain posture, with everything firing properly, under stress was more beneficial to me than years of physiotherapy.

Right now I'm visiting my mom and was carrying soil for her garden, just holding it out in front of me like I would carry a food tray at a cafeteria. If I slouch forward even slightly, like I have most of my life, my biceps are working and that's about it. If I fix my posture, my entire body joins in the lift (especially the upper back) and I feel like I could flip a freaking car over.

I think my upper back has been sitting out of all of my exercises over the years. As a child I was hunched over a desk in school, hunched as a catcher in baseball and a goalie in hockie; as an adult I box and train BJJ while spending my days hunched over a computer... I've been hunched my entire life!

You might not see the same results as me, since I came from a place of pretty bad muscle imbalances that I was never able to fix. But, yes, everything I do with my body has improved because of this.

I may have recently made another breakthrough in the way I'm pulling myself into the lunge position with my hamstrings -- my quads are doing less work and my glutes are talking over as the bosses of my lower body. These are exciting times for my butt cheeks!
 
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You are literally not paying attention to the things I'm typing.
@Jason B., no one is obliged to directly answer your question. It's fine to point out that your question wasn't answer, but accusing someone of not paying attention assumes facts not in evidence - someone can pay attention to what you've said and choose to take the conversation in a different direction.

I will re-open this thread tomorrow.

-S-
 
This is long, I know, but it's got some strength-training stuff you've probably never really thought about before.

This is a strange question because they go against Strongfirst's principles, but I'm a Strongfirst guy at heart and have no guidance on how to program these or work them into traditional strongfirst programming.

Extreme Isometrics are seven unweighted isometric holds at the most stretched position (dead hangs, lunges, push-ups, wall squats, good mornings, dips and bicep curls) that you train yourself to hold for 5 minutes. But they're more complicated than that because:

- they're not a true isometric... they're actually an eccentric, where you're pulling or pushing yourself deeper and deeper into the stretch and resisting against your body's end ROM

-you have to hold them with PERFECT FORM, not just sloppily hanging out

The supposed benefits of this are: correcting imbalances and pattern dysfunction (the logic is that isometrics aren't actually unmoving, the muscles are firing hundreds of times per minute, so doing it with perfect form is the equivalent of giving yourself hundreds of reps of practice in just a few minutes; also, these ever-deepening holds will also increase any limitations you have due to flexibility), unstoppable endurance, hypertrophy (I've seen this attributed to both Occlusion Training and mTor activation in something Christian Thibaudeau calls Eccentric Quasi-Isometrics), triggering any past trauma, deep calm (after you succeed in holding it for 5 minutes).

I have seen some of these promised results: I have made some incredible progress in cleaning up dysfunction (and finally realize what kind of strength is truly possible when your body works as a unit), I have most definitely been triggering my PTSD and teaching myself to work through it, and I've built muscle size.

(Side note: Pavel's breathing course has really helped me work through the trauma reactions that get triggered with this type of training. I hope to really get some control back over my sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. I could go down a long rabbit hole here, but it's crazy how similar strength training is to the exercises I've been given by therapists for my PTSD. I was reading the Bulgarian Manual by... Greg Nickols?... and he said that, in studies, whether or not Bulgarian training will crush you with it's extreme demands or take you to a place of incredible strength gains all comes down to whether or not you believe it will make you stronger or believe it will harm you. And this echoes what studies have shown in trauma recovery... it all depends on your mindset/perception/belief and whether your body kicks into its sympathetic [fight, flight, freeze or fawn] nervous system. I finally understand what belief in yourself truly means and why a certain type of person naturally excels at athletics. Or anything, really.)

ANYWAYS, that was a lot of babbling to say that I don't know how to program these. I keep getting to about 2 minute holds, then make a major breakthrough in my body working properly and fall back down to about 30-45 seconds and start the climb all over again.

My workouts look like this:

5 minute warm up

20-30 minute Exteme Isometrics work

30-40 minute of the Strongfirst Bodyweight course plus isometric deadlifts and squats

5-10 minutes of metabolic conditioning (I can probably ditch these for Maffetone-style aerobics on my off days)

My workouts are also not optimal by any definition because I'm basically cobbling together my own workout from various concepts. I've never seen an extreme isometrics workout laid out.

I want to keep the Extreme Isometrics at the beginning of the workout (even though everyone knows you're supposed to do strength work fresh -- I just feel these need to be my focus right now).

Should I do the Extreme Isometrics one day and the Strength work a few days later? Or heavy Isometrics day / light strength work and light Isometrics day / heavy strength work? I feel like the strength work is important to use the repatterning that the isometrics are unlocking. I literally cannot describe how crazy strong I feel now that my entire upper body is jumping into overhead pressing.

And how would you program your way to 5 minutes anyways? This really is skill training that just happens to hurt a lot, it's not hanging out sloppily and taking whatever shortcut you need to take to keep your body in the air for the required time.

Thanks in advance. Hopefully someone made it through this craziness and can offer some suggestions because I've stumbled across a really obscure training style that is doing great things for me, but I don't know what to do with it.
So I've been using extreme isometrics for a bit and I have to say that you are programming it wrong. extreme isos are supposed to be their own workout and you are supposed to do them twice a day for 8 months to get the most full transformation how I am attempting to break them up is this.
Daily Routine
am

30-minute run (building up to one hour over the course of a few weeks)
30 minutes of extreme isos

pm
30 minutes strength work or extra cardio
30 minutes of isos
 
So I've been using extreme isometrics for a bit and I have to say that you are programming it wrong. extreme isos are supposed to be their own workout and you are supposed to do them twice a day for 8 months to get the most full transformation how I am attempting to break them up is this.
Daily Routine
am

30-minute run (building up to one hour over the course of a few weeks)
30 minutes of extreme isos

pm
30 minutes strength work or extra cardio
30 minutes of isos
Interesting, that's quite the frequency. By "twice a day" does that mean 7 days a week, or less? May I ask the source?
 
So I've been using extreme isometrics for a bit and I have to say that you are programming it wrong. extreme isos are supposed to be their own workout and you are supposed to do them twice a day for 8 months to get the most full transformation how I am attempting to break them up is this.
Daily Routine
am

30-minute run (building up to one hour over the course of a few weeks)
30 minutes of extreme isos

pm
30 minutes strength work or extra cardio
30 minutes of isos
Great info Aaron

If all the sessions included max holds I think that I would personally find this too demanding on the system as a whole.

I know many people have written about ISO's and their ability to be trained for max time .. and with a high frequency - but I have found that after max length holds pushing to failure, I need some time between sessions.

Saying that, I found that testing a max time maybe once every second week - and then daily holds of a third of the length of that time - works well.

Richard
 
Is anyone testing their results vs carry-over to a few select external resistance movements, or in terms of gaining lean mass?

I know many people have written about ISO's and their ability to be trained for max time .. and with a high frequency - but I have found that after max length holds pushing to failure, I need some time between sessions.
Richard
When I use these with a "maximum voluntary contraction" about 20 seconds is top end. A full body session of this is 25 minutes of 20 on, 40 off. I cannot do this more than 1x per week if I really want to give it 100%.

Using these as more of a regular workout I break it down into 8 second pulses followed by rapid movement of the joint/muscle in a similar movement pattern or just sprinting in place. Exercise selection is likewise smaller, session length about the same.

Has anyone come up with an expedient or improvised means of measuring force production decay?

The biggest issue I have come up with when doing longer holds is a complete lack of feedback to let me know how hard I'm still exerting - what % of my start force. To some extent I can do this by pitting upper body vs lower, or generally training one movement/muscle pattern against a much stronger/better leveraged movement - the weaker of the two is the "trainee" and the stronger one is able to add resistance to keep the working muscle calibrated.

Have also come up with a variety of heavy springs etc to be used in-line, but it winds up being very clunky vs the simple elegance of just doing isometrics.
 
Is anyone testing their results vs carry-over to a few select external resistance movements, or in terms of gaining lean mass?


When I use these with a "maximum voluntary contraction" about 20 seconds is top end. A full body session of this is 25 minutes of 20 on, 40 off. I cannot do this more than 1x per week if I really want to give it 100%.

Using these as more of a regular workout I break it down into 8 second pulses followed by rapid movement of the joint/muscle in a similar movement pattern or just sprinting in place. Exercise selection is likewise smaller, session length about the same.

Has anyone come up with an expedient or improvised means of measuring force production decay?

The biggest issue I have come up with when doing longer holds is a complete lack of feedback to let me know how hard I'm still exerting - what % of my start force. To some extent I can do this by pitting upper body vs lower, or generally training one movement/muscle pattern against a much stronger/better leveraged movement - the weaker of the two is the "trainee" and the stronger one is able to add resistance to keep the working muscle calibrated.

Have also come up with a variety of heavy springs etc to be used in-line, but it winds up being very clunky vs the simple elegance of just doing isometrics.
Miller

Yours are definitely shorter holds....using the long lunge as an example I have done the extreme hold (3.20 for me) and the shorter more 'active' hold.
By active I mean pulling my front pulling backwards and back foot pulling forwards. They're different animals....but both work.

Richard
 
This thread got my gears turning, and I have been doing a little bit of research when I have a little bit of spare time. I came across this review, which has some interesting findings regarding the discussion at hand. I did have to use my college login to access the full article though, so I'm not sure if anyone here has a way to see the whole thing. I tried to excerpt some of the relevant findings. If I get some more time, I will look at some of the specific studies that they reviewed.

For reference:

SML = “short muscle length”

MML = “medium muscle length”

LNL = “long muscle length”

MVIC = “maximum voluntary isometric contraction”



Isometric training and long-term adaptations: Effects of muscle length, intensity, and intent: A systematic review


Oranchuk, D. J., Storey, A. G., Nelson, A. R., & Cronin, J. B. (2019). Isometric training and long‐term adaptations: Effects of muscle length, intensity, and intent: A systematic review. Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports, 29(4), 484-503.


Bold highlights are from me:

“. . .transfer to non-trained joint angles is much lower following SML training. For example, Bandy and Hanten,38 Bogdanis et al,64 Kubo et al,31 and Thepaut-Mathieu, van Hoecke, and Maton37 all trained participants at different muscle lengths and measured MVIC at numerous joint angles pre- and post-training. Bandy and Hanten38 observed significant (P < 0.05) improvements at four, five, and seven of the tested joint angles following SML, MML, and LML, respectively. Bogdanis et al64 reported increased MVIC at two of the assessed joint angles following SML training (22%-57.4%, ES = 0.88-2.41), while the LML group improved in all six angles (~12.3%). Similarly, the SML group in Kubo et al’s31 investigation significantly (P < 0.05) improved MVIC at five angles, while the LML group experienced significantly improved force production at eight of the tested angles. Interestingly, Thepaut-Mathieu, Van Hoecke, and Maton37 found that their LML group significantly (P < 0.05) improved at four angles, compared to two and five angles in the SML and the MML group, respectively. These data suggest that LML and MML isometric resistance training is superior to SMLs when the aim is to improve force throughout a range of motion.

In short, without posting too much material from the review, they found that in general, isometrics do produce the greatest strength adaptations closer to the angle that were trained. My understanding of the above findings though, is that training at longer muscle lengths does confer some strength across more angles than isos performed at shorter muscle lengths. It's also important for me to say that since I didn't have time to read into all of these little studies in this quotation, I'm not exactly sure what the training protocols were like in each one.
 
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