all posts post new thread

Bodyweight How would you program "extreme isometrics"? (weird but hella interesting, I promise)

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
This thread got my gears turning, and I have been doing a little bit of research when I have a little bit of spare time. I came across this review, which has some interesting findings regarding the discussion at hand. I did have to use my college login to access the full article though, so I'm not sure if anyone here has a way to see the whole thing. I tried to excerpt some of the relevant findings. If I get some more time, I will look at some of the specific studies that they reviewed.

For reference:

SML = “short muscle length”

MML = “medium muscle length”

LNL = “long muscle length”

MVIC = “maximum voluntary isometric contraction”



Isometric training and long-term adaptations: Effects of muscle length, intensity, and intent: A systematic review


Oranchuk, D. J., Storey, A. G., Nelson, A. R., & Cronin, J. B. (2019). Isometric training and long‐term adaptations: Effects of muscle length, intensity, and intent: A systematic review. Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports, 29(4), 484-503.


Bold highlights are from me:



In short, without posting too much material from the review, they found that in general, isometrics do produce the greatest strength adaptations closer to the angle that were trained. My understanding of the above findings though, is that training at longer muscle lengths does confer some strength across more angles than isos performed at shorter muscle lengths.

I've read that study and a bunch of other similar. They noted strength gains better at the angle trained, but when longer lengths are used there was an increase in "dynamic" strength through the whole range.

My personal philosophy is that iso needs to be paired with some form of isotonic, and preferably at higher movement speeds.

Interesting, a different research cited by Schoenfeld in one of his metas, the advantage in exhibited strength from heavy weight/low reps vs moderate weight/high reps did not hold up when tested isometrically.

My opinion is that isometrics have the best carry-over to untrained movement patterns. All this talk is making me want to work an iso session into my week.
 
I've read that study and a bunch of other similar. They noted strength gains better at the angle trained, but when longer lengths are used there was an increase in "dynamic" strength through the whole range.

My personal philosophy is that iso needs to be paired with some form of isotonic, and preferably at higher movement speeds.

Interesting, a different research cited by Schoenfeld in one of his metas, the advantage in exhibited strength from heavy weight/low reps vs moderate weight/high reps did not hold up when tested isometrically.

My opinion is that isometrics have the best carry-over to untrained movement patterns. All this talk is making me want to work an iso session into my week.
Haha

Today is a max hold test day for me for the ISO lunge....I get nervous haha.

Richard
 
Miller

Yours are definitely shorter holds....using the long lunge as an example I have done the extreme hold (3.20 for me) and the shorter more 'active' hold.
By active I mean pulling my front pulling backwards and back foot pulling forwards. They're different animals....but both work.

Richard
I've done those closing and opening, they work well. You need good traction or a doorframe to do them opening. And then I was following it with 10 second sprint-in-place with high knees.


Haha

Today is a max hold test day for me for the ISO lunge....I get nervous haha.

Richard
How do you determine if you're still applying respectable force, or do you just not worry about it and view the mental aspect as = to or > the physical?
When I started using my "winner/loser" strategy I was surprised to find that after 10 seconds my force development dropped way off without some form of external stimulus as a reference.

It makes me chuckle to suggest it, but there might be a place in the fitness world for a jumbo sized Bullworker - needs to be large enough to train legs with compound lifts . But at least it had a sliding indicator that showed when your force production was tanking.
 
I've done those closing and opening, they work well. You need good traction or a doorframe to do them opening. And then I was following it with 10 second sprint-in-place with high knees.



How do you determine if you're still applying respectable force, or do you just not worry about it and view the mental aspect as = to or > the physical?
When I started using my "winner/loser" strategy I was surprised to find that after 10 seconds my force development dropped way off without some form of external stimulus as a reference.

It makes me chuckle to suggest it, but there might be a place in the fitness world for a jumbo sized Bullworker - needs to be large enough to train legs with compound lifts . But at least it had a sliding indicator that showed when your force production was tanking.
If I am doing an 'active' lunge (they are all active, but you know what I mean) then 10-20 seconds pulling as hard as I can is all you can muster. As you get stronger you will generate more force, but I haven't got a way of 'measuring' it.

For the long holds - I know that on different days my 'best' might be different. After I hit 3.20+ on each leg, the next session i got nearer to 2.30. You just do you best each time and over time it generally gets better.

Richard
 
The more I experiment with them, the more I think one session a week works well. Personally it allows me to work on the areas that are likely to need work .. it allows for recovery between sessions .. and having you 'ready for anything' that some long hold ISO fans speak of in terms of how they feel when doing them. This for me is only achieved with less frequent sessions.

Pushing hard with these every day and working harder than daily life stresses on the body are, just took more out of recovery tank and actually left me feeling less 'ready for anything' than I would like.

Richard
 
Interesting, that's quite the frequency. By "twice a day" does that mean 7 days a week, or less? May I ask the source?
My collegiate strength coach was the person that introduced me to the concept so I guess that's my source. I and few other members of our team were making really good improvements in the weight room (I hold the records for squat, deadlift, and OHP on our team) but we weren't seeing a good translation to on-field performance. It is very high frequency because the recovery is actually really quick if done properly but your results are heavily dependent on how faulty your motor patterns are when you first began. I and the other guys who had used the program had a common theme of bad lifting mechanics and compensatory patterns that either caused us some form of injury in the past or injured us recently so our results were very dramatic after the 8 months we had used the program. i had lost a decent amount of muscle mass since I went off the program and did a bunch of extra stuff that I wasn't supposed to but still had seen a great increase in field strength and speed when I had recovered but the person.
 
Extreme Isometrics are seven unweighted isometric holds at the most stretched position (dead hangs, lunges, push-ups, wall squats, good mornings, dips and bicep curls) that you train yourself to hold for 5 minutes. But they're more complicated than that because:

- they're not a true isometric... they're actually an eccentric, where you're pulling or pushing yourself deeper and deeper into the stretch and resisting against your body's end ROM

You're holding an unweighted good morning for 5 min?

Is it still a good morning if you're not moving the toro up and down?
 
Honestly I don't know but will be following this thread. It almost sounds like Schroeder's extreme iso.

Personally I like to use a "max effort" with my isometrics and that cannot be held for more than about 30 seconds or slightly less.

Training at longer muscle lengths improves strength through the entire ROM, so that part is good. Also applying some form of load or resistance to force or attempt to force the exerting joint to open is also a good move.

I had the best results using iso either with longer holds 20 seconds on40 seconds off and followed within 48 hours with a HIIT session.

Also using 5-8 second pulses followed immediately with high speed movements in a similar movement pattern. Maintained most of my size and strength for over 2 months using only this protocol.

In short, I've never used isometrics as you describe, sounds interesting. A video or pics would be super helpful.
I know this comes late but what are "pulses"? Jay trained me from 1993-2002 but "extreme-iso's" and the ARP/POV were not in the protocols.
 
I know this comes late but what are "pulses"? Jay trained me from 1993-2002 but "extreme-iso's" and the ARP/POV were not in the protocols.

Pulses being a rapid jolt from a low tension hold about 20% to as hard as you can jam it for a shot. Rapidly repeat these for 10-20. I average 20 of these in 10 seconds.
 
Pulses being a rapid jolt from a low tension hold about 20% to as hard as you can jam it for a shot. Rapidly repeat these for 10-20. I average 20 of these in 10 seconds.
These sound interesting.

Are these related to the Jay Schroeder movements used with athletes such as Adam Archuleta?

My very rough understanding of these is that there movement list includes (but not limited to):
Bench press/pushup catches

Step from/jump from bench/step, landing - 1 foot or 2

Split squat jump and land

Plate throw up and catch

Mid bicep curl drop and catch

Mid extensions (weight falling behind head) catches

One arm upright row drop and catch

Straight arm infront/to the side drop and catch

Free standing one arm row drop and catch

Richard
 
These sound interesting.

Are these related to the Jay Schroeder movements used with athletes such as Adam Archuleta?

My very rough understanding of these is that there movement list includes (but not limited to):
Bench press/pushup catches

Step from/jump from bench/step, landing - 1 foot or 2

Split squat jump and land

Plate throw up and catch

Mid bicep curl drop and catch

Mid extensions (weight falling behind head) catches

One arm upright row drop and catch

Straight arm infront/to the side drop and catch

Free standing one arm row drop and catch

Richard
I’d have to see them executed to say if there are any similarities. I know pretty much zero about Schroeder’s isometric programming. The movements I use are all based on standard barbell and dumbell exercises.

Edit to add: if these are all based on using a drop with a hard stop on the lengthened muscle, then it seems like I’m using a variation on the same theme. Again, would have to see how they are specifically used.
 
Last edited:
Using these as more of a regular workout I break it down into 8 second pulses

"The Contract-Relax-Contract Pulsing Cycle"

Reearch by Dr. Stu McGill has demonstrated Pulse Training in which a Contraction of the Muscles is alternated by a Relation of the Muscle in the movement, ensure greater Force Production; Strength and Power,

Evidence of a Double Peak in Muscle Activation to Enhance Strike Speed and Force: An Example With Elite Mixed Martial Arts Fighters

"Many of the strikes intend to create fast motion and finish with a very large striking force, demonstrating a "double peak" of muscle activity. An initial peak was timed with the initiation of motion presumably to enhance stiffness and stability through the body before motion. This appeared to create an inertial mass in the large "core" for limb muscles to "pry" against to initiate limb motion. Then, some muscles underwent a relaxation phase as speed of limb motion increased. A second peak was observed upon contact with the opponent (heavy bag). It was postulated that this would increase stiffness through the body linkage, resulting in a higher effective mass behind the strike and likely a higher strike force. Observation of the contract-relax-contract pulsing cycle during forceful and quick strikes suggests that it may be fruitful to consider pulse training that involves not only the rate of muscle contraction but also the rate of muscle relaxation."

Matveyev (9) showed that elite athletes could have a muscle relaxation time of up to 8 times faster than nonathletes. The same work suggested that although relaxation rate is difficult to train, the release of an isometric contraction into full relaxation and speed of movement is the most effective training method.

...We have observed similar “pulsing” of activation in other elite sportsmen, including golfers and sprinters (10
).

With that in mind, let's look at one method of employing it in Resistance Training...

Kettlebell Swing Pluse Training

How to Train for Rapid Relaxation​

The kettlebell swing can be used for developing the skill of pulsing contraction followed by rapid relaxation. Here's how:
  • A burst of energy or "pulse" is used to begin the swing.
  • Once the swing is around chest height, rapid relaxation must occur to re-hinge the hips and guide the kettlebell back between the legs.
  • Another pulsed contraction is used to start the beginning of the next swing.
  • Then the kettlebell swings go in a continuous cycle of turning on and turning off certain musculature in the right sequence to create pulsing contractions. That develops the ability to produce power.
Understanding the mechanism/concept behind this "Pulse Training Method" allows individual to write a program and apply it with other Resistance Training Exercises or in training other sports,,,.

Explosive-Isometrics

Here are two Functional isometric Training Methods for Pulse Training...

Traditional Functional Isometric Pulse Training

This method works with Functioanl Isometric Training Pulse Training with a Loaded Bar Weight.

With Funtional Isometric Training Pulse Training the Bar Weight can be progressively increased (increasing the weight with each set).

There will be two sets of Rack Pins.

The bar will sit on pins lower in the Rack.

Another set of Rack Pins will be placed a few inches up in the Rack so that it only allow a Partial Range in the Movement.

With each Repetiton of the Set, drive the Bar as hard and fast as possible from the Lower Pins into the Upper Pins; performing an Isometric Action into the Upper Pins for a few Seconds. This is a Pulse Training Method.

The Issue

The issue with this method with a Light Weight is that ramming the Bar from the Lower Pins into the Upper Pins produces a Whiplash Effect that doen't feel good.

Secondly, ramming it with a lot of Speed into the Upper Pin makes a lot of noise. Most gym most likely won't allow that.

This method that overrides these issues...

Banded Functional Isometerics Pulse Training

With this method the Pin Setting are the same.

Some experiment is required to get this method down.

Attach Bands to the Bar in such a way that you can only perform a Partial Range Movement, with no Lockout.

This Functional Explosive Isometric Training also allows for progressively increasing the loading in each Set.

This Banded Accommodation Resistance Funtional Explosive Isometric Pulse Training Movement...

1) Slows the Bar Speed Down prior to hitting the Functional Isometric Positions. Thus, no Whiplash.

2) There is no "Noise Pollution" with this method, as there is with ramming the Bar into the Top Pin.


Has anyone come up with an expedient or improvised means of measuring force production decay?

Crane Scale


This article goes into how to meaure Isometric Froce Production with a Crane Scale.

It just takes a little experimentation on how to set it up for the Isometric Exercise being performed.
 
Last edited:
if you have a training log or otherwise are willing to post up what a week looks like (with still pics, vid or other reference material) it would be a huge help to understanding how these are supposed to be applied.

Related note, I found when doing full body overcoming isometrics I reduced frequency to 1x week. Two sessions was mentally too much for me to feel like I was really giving a "maximum voluntary contraction".

I know you are very experienced in isometric exercise and your comment reflects that. For me the mental recovery was an issue while I was doing HIT style one set to failure training.
 
I know you are very experienced in isometric exercise and your comment reflects that. For me the mental recovery was an issue while I was doing HIT style one set to failure training.

I must have become a lot more accustomed to the mental aspect as I have little trouble now training as many as four times a week (tho 3 is plenty).

For me the toughest recovery was Cluster Sets taken not-to-failure. Single set to failure can get pretty rough if run way out with set extenders.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ege
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom