Other/Mixed Hypertrophy in 40s 50s 60s ?

[silveraw]

Are we talking about him distancing himself from Gary Taubes?

The context was one of his "update" episodes. It was in reference to how he used to believe that fasting had unique benefits but now believes that those benefits are a result of caloric restriction in general.

But I think most reputable people started distancing themselves from Taubes after his debate with Alan Agranon and with all the research Kevin Hall has done into the carb insulin model.

 

[silveraw]

I don't know who Attia is, but this seems like a recipe for perpetual tail-chasing.

Hes is a doctor that specializes in longevity. His podcast is great.

As far as tail chasing... The established basics are pretty established and don't seem to change much. Don't eat too much, eat enough protein, and eat a variety of veggies and fruits. (yes carnivore is now on the scene, but has near zero research on it demonstrating any unique value)
Things like IF come along and seem like they might also be super important. So you add that into the mix. But after a while you figure out it doesn't really do anything unique from the "don't eat too much" rule. So you don't keep it in the mix anymore for people who don't find it an effective way to do rule number one.

To me chasing your tale would look more like strongly holding a belief even after you have disproven it in the belief that it will somehow start working differently without changing anything. The classic example is the obese guy eating keto and still being obese. But believing insulin is causing them to be obese. So they keep eating keto and ignore anything like "eating less" because they strongly believe that insulin causes obesity.

Said another way, don't second guess yourself without a reason. If you have a good reason, treat it like a good reason.

 

[Steve W.]

Hes is a doctor that specializes in longevity. His podcast is great.

As far as tail chasing... The established basics are pretty established and don't seem to change much. Don't eat too much, eat enough protein, and eat a variety of veggies and fruits. (yes carnivore is now on the scene, but has near zero research on it demonstrating any unique value)
Things like IF come along and seem like they might also be super important. So you add that into the mix. But after a while you figure out it doesn't really do anything unique from the "don't eat too much" rule. So you don't keep it in the mix anymore for people who don't find it an effective way to do rule number one.

To me chasing your tale would look more like strongly holding a belief even after you have disproven it in the belief that it will somehow start working differently without changing anything. The classic example is the obese guy eating keto and still being obese. But believing insulin is causing them to be obese. So they keep eating keto and ignore anything like "eating less" because they strongly believe that insulin causes obesity.

Said another way, don't second guess yourself without a reason. If you have a good reason, treat it like a good reason.

My point was less about being willing to change your mind ("loosely held") and more about having "strong beliefs" that are fragile enough that they need to be loosely held. Why have a strong belief in something without a basis to hold that belief strongly? I mean a dog will charge full speed ahead chasing his tail in one direction and never get anywhere, and then suddenly turn around and charge full speed ahead chasing his tail in the opposite direction and never get anywhere either. If he's not catching it going clockwise, he's very willing to try counterclockwise.

It reminds me of an exchange in possibly my favorite novel, Under the Frog by Tibor Fischer, involving a character named Ladanyi, a Jesuit priest, who is asked if the book he is reading, The Analects of Confucius, is any good:

"Life is too short for good books," said Ladanyi, "one should only read great books."

"How can you tell if it's great?"

"If it's been around for a couple of thousand years, that's usually a good sign."

A couple of thousand years might be an unrealistically high bar, but perhaps it's wise to have a high bar to accept an idea in the first place so your ideas can be strongly held. Then you're less likely to have to backtrack, even if you're willing to.

Don't eat too much, eat enough protein, and eat a variety of veggies and fruits.

Sounds reasonable, but also like it would make a very short podcast.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Hes is a doctor that specializes in longevity. His podcast is great.

But…he isn’t even 50?! He’s still a kid

 

[BillSteamshovel]

I've only got 12 months worth of data in my logs. I think I'm getting stronger but that could equally well be newbie gains.

Some of us 60+ would have far more data in logbooks and a better feel for past vs current capabilities - whats your gut feel, have you been treading water or getting stronger/weaker over the last 5-10 years ? ummmm ......... it depends ? ........

 

[Steve A]

I've only got 12 months worth of data in my logs. I think I'm getting stronger but that could equally well be newbie gains.

Some of us 60+ would have far more data in logbooks and a better feel for past vs current capabilities - whats your gut feel, have you been treading water or getting stronger/weaker over the last 5-10 years ? ummmm ......... it depends ? ........

It depends on how long somebody has been properly training. If somebody took up lifting late in life, or even just added a major lift late in life, they might be able to get stronger for several years. If somebody has been lifting for decades, they are very unlikely to be able to lift what they did at their peak. Not a matter of gut feel - that is reality, and anybody can look up performances by masters lifters in powerlifting and weightlifting meets and see how changes happen over the years (for those who have competed for years) to verify this.

If you think you have had newbie gains - celebrate, you can keep getting stronger for some time. Maybe considerably stronger. Check out these 70 year olds who start late:

 

[Steve A]

“I'm still not anywhere near the finish line. It's important to keep setting goals and taking on challenges no matter how old you are”

86-Year-Old Bodybuilder Breaks Own Record, Becomes Oldest to Ever Compete in Japan

"I'd like to set myself as an example to other grandpas and grandmas in the world by living healthy until 100."

mymodernmet.com

 

[watchnerd]

Turning forty soon and I shall keep this in mind. I’m already programming a 12 week Quick and Dead into every year thus far. I might also add a Kettlebell Muscle block or PTTP Bear cycle in.

When I do hypertrophy blocks, they're sport-specific in their exercise selection, but the programming is pretty much straight up bodybuilding.

 

[silveraw]

My point was less about being willing to change your mind ("loosely held") and more about having "strong beliefs" that are fragile enough that they need to be loosely held. Why have a strong belief in something without a basis to hold that belief strongly? I mean a dog will charge full speed ahead chasing his tail in one direction and never get anywhere, and then suddenly turn around and charge full speed ahead chasing his tail in the opposite direction and never get anywhere either. If he's not catching it going clockwise, he's very willing to try counterclockwise.

It reminds me of an exchange in possibly my favorite novel, Under the Frog by Tibor Fischer, involving a character named Ladanyi, a Jesuit priest, who is asked if the book he is reading, The Analects of Confucius, is any good:

A couple of thousand years might be an unrealistically high bar, but perhaps it's wise to have a high bar to accept an idea in the first place so your ideas can be strongly held. Then you're less likely to have to backtrack, even if you're willing to.

Sounds reasonable, but also like it would make a very short podcast.

Well I suppose you could say it in a format that has held up for thousands of years.

Socrates said "The only thing I know is that I know nothing. But I'm not sure of even that."

Or "A house built on sand falls when the rains and wind come". So I check my foundations for sand. (The story "If you meet the buddha on the road, kill him" really stuck with me)

I'll go all in on something if it makes sense and has good reasoning. But I always reflect and try to maintain a skeptical mind. Because I know that I don't know everything and something was missed and that missed knowledge could invalidate what I know.

And since growth requires change, you gotta make decisions based on the information you have now. Knowing that you have incomplete and possibly incorrect information. Future you has to do the same thing.

 

[John K]

Well I suppose you could say it in a format that has held up for thousands of years.

To quote Socrates "The only thing I know is that I know nothing."

 

[silveraw]

View attachment 19369

How could I forget!
"Never get involved in a landwar in Asia!"
and slightly less known, "Never bet against a Sicilian when death is on the line!"

 

[Boris Bachmann]

I don't know how germane this is to this thread, but I think it's at least somewhat relevant. After a decade+ of avoiding "heavy" squats, I've been trying to get back to something that I consider reasonable. It has been a loooong year and how hard it has been to stretch my squatting numbers just reinforces how important it is to maintain strength as much as possible. Like most things, strength is very transient - use it or lose it. Mobility is the same - use it or lose it. I try to keep a never say die attitude about these things, but lose too much for too long and you might not ever get it back.

 

[Steve W.]

I don't know how germane this is to this thread, but I think it's at least somewhat relevant. After a decade+ of avoiding "heavy" squats, I've been trying to get back to something that I consider reasonable. It has been a loooong year and how hard it has been to stretch my squatting numbers just reinforces how important it is to maintain strength as much as possible. Like most things, strength is very transient - use it or lose it. Mobility is the same - use it or lose it. I try to keep a never say die attitude about these things, but lose too much for too long and you might not ever get it back.

This reminds me of one of my favorite lines from literature that I've quoted here before. A character in Ernest Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises is asked how he went bankrupt (although it applies to many things in life), and he replies, "Two ways. Gradually and then suddenly."

I think a lot of positive progress works like this too.

 

[Nate]

Work the fast twitch for the win!

"most studies observe that the size and contractile function of fibres expressing slow myosin heavy chain (MHC) I are well-preserved with ageing. In contrast, there are profound age-related decrements in the size and contractile function of the fibres expressing the MHC II isoforms. Notably, lifelong aerobic exercise training is unable to prevent most of the decrements in fast fibre contractile function, which have been implicated as a primary mechanism for the age-related loss in whole-muscle power output. "

https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP282298

 

[Bill Lets]

At 65 and a well defined 178lbs when someone tells me you look ripped my mind tells me what they really mean is “your skinny”. On one hand I feel that I’m making gains yet the scale tells me no. When you age the legs are the first to go hope to prioritize them this winter and add a couple of pounds. New carts on how to work to make muscles bigger concerning rep ranges are well, not needed. Bodybuilders over the last 70 years are the go to source they have always been ahead of “the science” on building muscle and nutrition.

 

[guardian7]

Turning forty soon and I shall keep this in mind. I’m already programming a 12 week Quick and Dead into every year thus far. I might also add a Kettlebell Muscle block or PTTP Bear cycle in.

I highly recommend this approach for those who don't have specific athletic competitive or program goals that require specialization. Even if you have a specific resistance training goal, you can vary the modality (barbell, KB, bodyweight) and exercises over the course of the year by identifying assistive exercises or lagging strength or mobility to still support that goal. Losing weight through aerobic/conditioning work can help increase pullups for example.

 

[guardian7]

I've only got 12 months worth of data in my logs. I think I'm getting stronger but that could equally well be newbie gains.

Some of us 60+ would have far more data in logbooks and a better feel for past vs current capabilities - whats your gut feel, have you been treading water or getting stronger/weaker over the last 5-10 years ? ummmm ......... it depends ? ........

One factor is when you started weight training. For some like myself who came to it late, there may still plenty of room for growth, but for others who achieved high levels of strength when they were young, then yeah, they may not be able to recapture some of those levels of strength but just by continuing, they improve quality of life and productivity and mental wellbeing.

Charles Staley said, "At a certain age, maintaining is gaining."

I am glad that because I started late, I don't have a history of injury that many seem to have when they started young and didn't know what they were doing or ego lifting too much.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Some of us 60+ would have far more data in logbooks and a better feel for past vs current capabilities - whats your gut feel, have you been treading water or getting stronger/weaker over the last 5-10 years ? ummmm ......... it depends ? ........

Not 60+, but 55. At this point I don’t expect gains without increasing lean body mass or introduction of novel training stimulus.
I could probably increase specific strength at a given lift using high frequency training, but I don’t find that very useful in my day to day.
I could probably gain mass via tried and true methods I’ve already used : a la modified DeLorme or Clusters.
But…increasingly I have to account for how my joints tolerate this, and my performance at work cannot be impaired in any way, this can be fiendishly demanding at times.

That said, I have def gotten stronger, rather I have maintained or slightly increased strength as I’ve gotten lighter. I am spurred to try various approaches to gauge the comparative response and am still getting reasonable response.

I am slowly being pushed more toward age-proofing than aesthetic + strength, and only have time for so many goals. While mass and general strength are always high on the list I am seriously working on accident proofing myself, the ability to not so much to avoid a fall but to take it like a 20yr old when I do.

 

[Bill Lets]

I am slowly being pushed more toward age-proofing than aesthetic + strength, and only have time for so many goals. While mass and general strength are always high on the list I am seriously working on accident proofing myself, the ability to not so much to avoid a fall but to take it like a 20yr old when I do.

Below is a good theory for getting older, no. Taken from Dan John forum.

“I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

 

[Steve Freides]

@Bill Lets, I find the advice in that quotation too extreme. Follow that advice and then we can quote, "Only the mediocre are always at their best." Occam's Razor posits that, if you're choosing between explanations of something, the simpler explanation is to be preferred. But explanations and theories aren't practices. Hormesis says there is a range of efforts - challenges, if you prefer - we can use in our training, and everything in that range should be used. That range includes things that we can do one day and wouldn't be able to do the next - unless one's life dictates otherwise, some of that heavy effort should be part of best ways to go about fitness.

I think powerlifting makes a good place to spell out an example. Here's my approach, learned from those who came before me and from PlanStrong: twice a year, peak at the end of a 13-week cycle, e.g., October, November, December, compete in early January, then Jan/Feb/Mar, shift to other training, be it powerlifting focused on auxiliary exercises or something further afield like strongman, and April/May/June and July/Aug/Sep repeat the structure of the previous six months. If you use PlanStrong, your 13-week block would be two Preparatory periods followed by a Competition period. Having some weights in the 90-95% 1RM range will make you tired and you won't want to do that again the next day, but the overall effect is more than just positive, it's life-affirming - you'll feel great.

I carry this idea even further, trying to think in 5-year blocks corresponding to the 5-year age groups in which I compete. I take about half of each 5-year block and dedicate it to powerlifting, and then go in other directions for the rest of the time. My own "other direction" preference of late has been "all-around weight lifting" wherein you are picking from a list of 300 competition lifts instead of just 3. This coming block, I'm hoping to do some of that and also, for the first time in my life, add some Olympic weight lifting.

The idea of never doing something that takes so much from ourselves that we can't do it again tomorrow would bore me to tears.

For an excellent description of how to go about this, please read Pavel T. in Kettlebell Simple and Sinister, Revised Edition, Pages 71-73, the section entitled, "Flip The Crazy Switch." A few choice quotes: citing Carl Jung saying, "Man needs difficulties; they are necessary for health." One more from Pavel, "While redlining your heart and flooding your body with lactic acid is not something one should do regularly, an occasional jolt of this sort is highly beneficial to a healthy person to bust through a plateau. As suggested by some research, it might kill defective cells and their components that could cause a lot of trouble if allowed to stick around undead."

-S-