Kettlebell Ideal kgs for grapplers?

[Megatonsunshine]

Just to squash uncertainty, I've read it that mma types and grapplers should aim for 32kg, and the 40kg and 48 kgs are best reserved for people who make strength their primary endeavour. Is is best for those that do Jiu Jistu to stay at 32kgs (swings and TGUs), or recommended that once we own that weight to move up as well?

 

[Lew]

Just to squash uncertainty, I've read it that mma types and grapplers should aim for 32kg, and the 40kg and 48 kgs are best reserved for people who make strength their primary endeavour. Is is best for those that do Jiu Jistu to stay at 32kgs (swings and TGUs), or recommended that once we own that weight to move up as well?

Based on my limited experience in wrestling, kempo, and shiryn-ryu, as long as you own the bell, then move up.

Maintaining flexibility while increasing strength and endurance, equals the kind of overall power that will make you unstoppable.

Oh, and technique.

Flexibility, strength, endurance, and technique.

Go for it all.

 

[Megatonsunshine]

Thanks for the reply!

But would moving up I'm weight take away from flexibility and movement? The great Stew McGill says there are no two ways about it, heavier weights require a certain inflexible stiffness. There's no getting around it. You have to sacrifice one for the other. Plus, I need flexibility for my BJJ.

 

[Steve Freides]

There are other variables, not just your sport. Age, size, injury history, current weaknesses and strength to name but a few.

Where are you now with your S & S?

-S-

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Regardless of priority, its always best to own a weight before moving up..

@Megatonsunshine what rank are you right now and how much do you weigh?

 

[Keep Lifting]

there is an enormous difference between being inflexible and ones ability to get tight. I haven't read where McGill says "... a certain inflexible stiffness", but it seems taken out of context. there are plenty of big strong lifters who maintain the flexibility necessary for sports and know how to get tight when it comes to performing a heavy lift. Also, there are no hard and fast rules about what weight you should try to achieve for a certain sport, BUT ... STRONGER IS ALWAYS BETTER. the give and take has to come between your dedication to your sport versus your dedication to getting strong, there is a time and recovery balance which one needs to consider. that's a determination for you and your coach to make, but please dont buy into the idea that getting stronger and using heavier weights puts the brakes on your ability to maintain and even increase your flexibility.

 

[Lew]

There is a point at which your hypertrophy would limit your flexibility, but then you'd probably be ready for competition on the stage, instead of in the ring.

Keep Lifting is right: strength rules.

And I'm trying to think of a time in any of my physical endeavors when I heard a coach say to anyone, "HEY! Leave the weights alone!! You're getting too big for this sport!"

StrongFirst!

 

[Keep Lifting]

Dmitri Sharkov doesnt seem to care much for your comments about strength/hypertophy limiting flexibility

 

[Lew]

That's perfect!!

There you are Megatonsunshine.

When you look like that you can start to wonder if your muscles are limiting your flexibility!!

 

[Steve Freides]

Bud Jeffries would be another example of a flexible big, strong man.

-S-

 

[Will Moore]

This thread brings to mind two of my favorite phrases. The first is, "What are your goals?" The second is, "No number stands alone."

So, like Steve asked, where are you at in S&S progression?

I ask because there have been times in my life when the long view has impeded the now. My perspective is that when my "productivity potential" is such that I can responsibly perform with virtuosity Sinister six days living well and possibly training in some other modality, then it is time to reevaluate goals and consider variables.

That said, I have elected to focus on S&S to the prescribed end. As a result, I am enjoying the now much more.

 

[Kyrinov]

Hey bud, I've struggled with the same questions for most of my training life. I'm no expert in either martial arts or strength training but for what it's worth I'll share my current thoughts on this question. My sense is that the question of loss of flexibility, mobility and speed that many martial arts folks fear with higher level strength training is a question of training density. The single-minded pursuit of strength over and above all attributes will lead to significant stresses on the connective tissues and nervous system which will over time create disfavourable alterations in the elasticity of the tissues and sophistication of the nervous system respectively. I don't like the use of the word "sophistication" in this context but its the best my new-dad brain can produce at this point.

In order to avoid this, it's simply a question of planning your strength training over longer periods. Whereas someone who seeks to compete in PL or a bodybuilder might sacrifice everything to speed up adaptations, this is not the way to go for you (or me.) Taking a longer approach gives the body time to recover between sessions, maintaining connective tissue elasticity, favourable motor programs and your martial skill. Its also a question of what is the dominant stimulus for your body. If you make strength a secondary stimulus, reducing density and volume to levels that allow you to continue to perform in your sport, then the stimulus from the martial arts training will remain dominant and will not be compromised by your strength work.

While I am impressed with the gentleman in the splits, I would not take this to indicate that such development is good within the context of your goals. The ability to do a full split is not the same kind of flexibility/mobility required in grappling sports, where it is not just a question of having full range of motion but of also having fine tuned control of articulations throughout the body to allow subtle leverage advantages and "slips" within your structure while under load. There is also a question of maintaining healthy afferent (feeling) pathways as I sometimes fear that excessive strength training favours the efferent (doing) pathways to the detriment of the afferent pathways. The purpose of strength training, for me anyway, is to allow this mobility to take place safely and strongly through a wide range of motion.

I hope that helps. Really its just question of self-monitoring and ego-checking. If you are not sure if you are pushing too hard, then you are pushing too hard. Better to take it slow and undertrain the strength side than to overtrain it to the detriment of your goals. My thoughts for what they're worth.

 

[Tony Gracia]

Just to squash uncertainty, I've read it that mma types and grapplers should aim for 32kg, and the 40kg and 48 kgs are best reserved for people who make strength their primary endeavour. Is is best for those that do Jiu Jistu to stay at 32kgs (swings and TGUs), or recommended that once we own that weight to move up as well?

Heavy KB ballistics and TGU's will do nothing but good things for your grappling. When you are proficient and confident with a certain size, start gradually introducing some sets at the next size up. The benefits are well documented. From a personal standpoint, swings and TGU's have affected my mobility and flexibility positively - not negatively.

 

[Megatonsunshine]

There are other variables, not just your sport. Age, size, injury history, current weaknesses and strength to name but a few.

Where are you now with your S & S?

-S-

I'm at 32kg for swings, and transitioning between 24kg and 32kg for get ups.

@Mark Limbaga I'm a 4 stripe brown belt @200lbs.

@Keep Lifting I've seen him say it a few times. There's even a vid on youtube. Hold on, I'll find it.

@Kyrinov Wow! Are you sure you're not an expert? lol

 

[Steve Freides]

I think we have to qualify and quantify "high level strength training" before we vilify it. And we also need to do the same for our OP's grappling.

The S&S guidelines are pretty clear. When a trainee wishes, scale back S&S to allow for a new priority in training. Simple is a good place to make that change but we shouldn't discount other ways.

I still don't feel we have nearly enough information about the OP to make a recommendation.

-S-

 

[Tony Gracia]

@Megatonsunshine at that size and BJJ experience I think you have room to keep increasing load with your KB training before you hit a point of diminishing returns. The "Simple" goal in S&S is a fine place to start. Additionally, once you've done that, I think you should be able to once in a while do a set of one-arm-swings x10 reps and TGU x1 rep per side at half your bodyweight (44kg for you).

 

[Megatonsunshine]

lol

I think we have to qualify and quantify "high level strength training" before we vilify it. And we also need to do the same for our OP's grappling.

The S&S guidelines are pretty clear. When a trainee wishes, scale back S&S to allow for a new priority in training. Simple is a good place to make that change but we shouldn't discount other ways.

I still don't feel we have nearly enough information about the OP to make a recommendation.

-S-

What more info would you need?

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

Additionally, once you've done that, I think you should be able to once in a while do a set of one-arm-swings x10 reps and TGU x1 rep per side at half your bodyweight (44kg for you).

Woo-Hoo! That's me. Guess I am MMA ready. Doing 10X10 w/ 24 kg and 10 TGU's w/ same. Only 2-3 lbs under ½ body weight. Am I obsessing and over compensating "little guy syndrome" HAH! Current bodyweight about 108 lbs

 

[jca17]

If you aren't specifically training and eating to get big, you aren't going to get big. Dan John says putting on lean muscle is the HARDEST training goal there is (I think he put it over fat loss). I think just looking at the strength/flexibility accomplishments of many StrongFirst instructors (for starters: Pavel himself) should help relieve fears of strength necessitating tightness. Don't stop training flexibility. Also, in Easy Strength, Dan John does say there is a point where stronger doesn't necessarily mean better. For most power sports, he puts that at 2.5xBW DL, 2xbw back squat, 1.5xbw bench press. If you have those and aren't excelling at your sport, more time in the weight room is NOT going to get you any farther. And he's talking about contact sports where size and strength are a premium (eg, American football).

Also, there are plenty of sports where a coach may be concerned with an athlete getting too big. Any weigh-in sports, obviously, if you aren't training to compete at the next weight class. Also, I've seen players losing weight to get better in basketball, hockey, and football, and not all from fat. There does come a point where size is a hindrance to agile athleticism. It's physics.

 

[Keep Lifting]

The great Stew McGill says there are no two ways about it, heavier weights require a certain inflexible stiffness. There's no getting around it. You have to sacrifice one for the other.

Again - i very much doubt that McGill spoke these words, "you have to sacrifice one for the other", he speaks about stiffness often in relation to being able to tighten supporting musculature to create the proper structure for lifting heavy weights safely, but inflexible stiffness is a term of strength it is not a term that means a lack of overall flexibility. You do not need to sacrifice your flexibility in order to lift heavy.

And yes Kyrinov, i recognize that the split doesnt translate directly to flexibility necessary for grappling, my point is that the OP's assumption that getting stronger through handling greater resistance will automatically limit his ability to be flexible is faulty reasoning. There is no scientific evidence showing that correlation and the picture of the bodybuilder doing the split is tongue in cheek jab at that theory.