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Nutrition IF, Cortisol and Leptin

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Ryan T

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Encouragement post: Big fan of intermittent fasting here. Usually my pattern was more of an ESE 1x per week with an occassional 36 hour fast 1-2 times per month. I did skip breakfast on many days as well. Recently I was listening to the Live Life Aggressively podcast and one of the guests was Christian Thibaudeau. Intermittent fasting pros and cons were brougth up. One of the "cons" that Christian mentioned was if you are already in a cortisol state, you are actually negatively affecting your hormonal profile. You may become more (not less) insulin resistant, not be able to take advantage of the spike in HGH etc...

I haven't had a saliva or blood test to measure my actual hormonal profile, however I believe I have been in a higher cortisol state based on my stress management and sleep. I've stepped away from IF for a while and focused on getting 3 balanced meals a day (no snacks) with good sleep in the hopes of increasing leptin sensitivity and decreasing cortisol.

Ten days doing this has made a difference in my life. Sleeping better, feeling less stressed and overall sense of well-being is better. I would like return to ESE 1-2 per week once I feel solid in my stress management. If you find yourself stressed and sleeping poorly, I encourage you to try what I have done. I'd be curious what your experiences have been with this.

Cheers.
 
Interesting.

This past November I went from S&S/TSC training in the evenings (and 16/8 IF), to RoP at 5 a.m. (maintaining IF). I was already getting up at 5:30, so it wasn’t much earlier.

I gained 5-ish pounds over the 13 weeks of RoP, and it was mostly fat (waist circumference went up). Granted this was over the holiday season, and relatively lighter weight for the program (16kg, I didn’t have 20kg but that would’ve been better).

But I do wonder if the 30 less minutes of sleep and fairly intense morning exercise raised my cortisol (which naturally wakes you up), then the extended fast (until noon-ish) kept it high, inhibiting the fat-burning effects of IF.

For my next cycle of RoP soon I will add back a protein-rich meal on training days (such as spinach omelette) or protein shake, saving longer (12+ hours) fasts for non-training days.
 
@Sean M. That's a good observation. I realize one other change I've made was starting my S&S practice around 4:30 PM. Used to do early AM training as well, but ever since I started making breakfast for the kiddos in the morning I consistently would run out of time. Also since I'm trying to get 8 hours of sleep a night, it's hard to go to bed right at 9 PM to get up at 5 AM.
 
Maybe there is a distinction here between IF as a diet...a fat/weight loss thing and that of IF as a diet....merely a way of eating, which isn't a focus of fat loss. An IF diet or an IF diet, same but different.
Perfectly reasonable to eat 3 good meals a day and still not eat, or not be hungry or fast for 14 hours too.
Problems arise with not eating very much when your body is screaming at you to get some nosh in.....and being afraid of getting fat. Doesn't really matter if you fast or not.....if you restrict calories too much for too long there will be a backlash. And, yes, a stress response.
There is nothing wrong at all, ever, with eating 3 meals a day. In fact if you do and it serves you well then stick with it. Yeah it's not instagrammable spirulina coconut bollox IF keto paleo vegan but so what? Enjoy eating good food in moderation. ...the start, middle and end point.
 
I've been reading about modified warrior diet. There's Michael kecks and iron addicts. Ori also recommends some protein too. Basically three or so shakes or light protein during the day. For those of us with heavy labour jobs it takes the edge off and ensures we're getting enough protein. It's not quite full blown fasting but whatever works. I've also read as we get older more protein is a benefit
 
Maybe there is a distinction here between IF as a diet...a fat/weight loss thing and that of IF as a diet....merely a way of eating, which isn't a focus of fat loss. An IF diet or an IF diet, same but different.
Perfectly reasonable to eat 3 good meals a day and still not eat, or not be hungry or fast for 14 hours too.
Problems arise with not eating very much when your body is screaming at you to get some nosh in.....and being afraid of getting fat. Doesn't really matter if you fast or not.....if you restrict calories too much for too long there will be a backlash. And, yes, a stress response.
There is nothing wrong at all, ever, with eating 3 meals a day. In fact if you do and it serves you well then stick with it. Yeah it's not instagrammable spirulina coconut bollox IF keto paleo vegan but so what? Enjoy eating good food in moderation. ...the start, middle and end point.
My n=1 experience is that the margin for error / sensitivity is hightened once one’s weight/body fat is lower. So strict IF may work great (without negative hormonal response) when one has 20+ lbs excess body fat, but the body is much more sensitive to that kind of stress (IF and/or calorie restriction) once body fat gets <20% (for men)
 
@ali That's a great distinction to make!

I naturally gravitate towards IF as a style of eating as well, but I stood to lose some fat as well so I figured that would help. For a long time I was more of a warrior diet style of eating, but once I started investigating IF and learning about the benefits to insulin sensitivity, increased HGH I went towards the Eat Stop Eat style. 24 hr fasts 1-2 per week is really manageable and I usually feel great when I do it.

Since leptin research suggests it's a master hormone to regulate hunger and and fat storage, I focusing on the 5 rules of the Leptin Diet. Three meals a day, 5-6 hours apart, high protein breakfast, no snacks ending a couple hours before bed. So for me that looks like 6a,12p,6p. Eat slowly and stop eating before eating you are full.

Leptin diet protocol also calls for reduced carb intake, the suggested macro split is 40% fat, 30% carbs, 30% protein, but honestly I'm not focused on that right now. Micro managing my nutrition has never been a sustainable practice for me. I'm trying to be more intuitive on how I eat. I've got a decent amount of fat to lose, but I'm not even going to focus on now either. I'm focusing on S&S Simple goal. I figure in the process of developing that practice my nutrition will eventually fall into place naturally.
 
I recall when reading ESE way back that the recommendation was not to do IF if in a stressed state, I.e. lack of sleep, work stress, stress from family life etc.
 
Dr. Jason Fung has a good blog post on cortisol’s role in obesity:
A Closer Look at Cortisol

All his stuff is great, but I can’t seem to find information on exercise as stress, fasting, and cortisol.

In other words, the research on cortisol seems to distinguish between chronic and temporary cortisol levels. Cortisol and other hormones wake us up, and some adrenaline during a fast helps deploy body fat for fuel, but none of the articles I can find talk about vigorous exercise during a fast: If you vigorously exercise upon waking, 8-10 hours into a fast, and continue fasting for 4-6 more hours, are your hormones so jacked from the exercise that you are losing all the benefits of fasting and actually having the reverse effect (body is too far into survival mode)?
 
If you vigorously exercise upon waking, 8-10 hours into a fast, and continue fasting for 4-6 more hours, are your hormones so jacked from the exercise that you are losing all the benefits of fasting and actually having the reverse effect (body is too far into survival mode)?

No, I think the point the speaker was trying to make was If is not going to be a useful tool for health promotion and fat loss if your cortisol levels are chronically elevated already. He went on to say that if your cortisol levels are already at an optimal level (as shown by either a blood test or anxiety, sleep and stress management) you are more likely to benefit from IF. He wasn't against IF but was more warning not to assume that just because the research is promising it will work every time for everyone. It's important to distinguish where you are at.

IF wasn't helping me eventhough I was sticking to it and had been doing it for some time. I plan to got back to ESE 1-2x after a month or so based on how if feel my stress management, sleep, and overall sense of well being is on track. If I notice my sense of well being going down again, I'll flip back to a more standard eating pattern.
 
Really awesome discussion so far.

Be careful with coffee consumption as well. Coffee will raise cortisol and if you stack that with Intermittent Fasting, it could put your body into a bad hormonal position. You also have to be careful not to hammer your adrenal glands. IF will stress your adrenal glands. As @Stuart Elliott said, the stress of your environment can affect your whole body and it may not be the best time to fast.

Ori Hofmekler's new book The 7 Principles of Stress, talk about all these problems in length. Your health is all about managing stress. Ori stresses that it's important not to overdo your fasting regimen. Always keep tabs on how you feel and don't stick with an arbitrary number of fasting hours, just because someone says so.

You also have to look at who is writing the fasting protocol. Maybe the author lives in Malibu, is retired, spends days at the beach and has all fresh food. This is drastically different from somebody who lives in Alaska, works manual labor and has to eat sub par food. Always have to look at the protocol and the author in context.

Also, if you return to eating three meals a day, you need to give your body time to adjust the blood sugar. Fasting definitely changes how your body handles blood sugar.
 
Be careful with coffee consumption as well. Coffee will raise cortisol and if you stack that with Intermittent Fasting, it could put your body into a bad hormonal position. You also have to be careful not to hammer your adrenal glands. IF will stress your adrenal glands. As @Stuart Elliott said, the stress of your environment can affect your whole body and it may not be the best time to fast.
Good reminder. I have a Diet Coke habit for sure. I don't feel the effect of caffeine either way (I can function in the morning without caffeine, and I can drink Diet Coke well into the evening and have no trouble falling or staying asleep...is "caffeine resistance/insensitivity" a thing?), but I do wonder/worry if it is too much to pound a few Diet Cokes for a few hours of continued fasting after vigorous fasted strength training.
You also have to look at who is writing the fasting protocol. Maybe the author lives in Malibu, is retired, spends days at the beach and has all fresh food. This is drastically different from somebody who lives in Alaska, works manual labor and has to eat sub par food. Always have to look at the protocol and the author in context.
Oddly specific! I think I know who you're talking about... ;)(y)
Also, if you return to eating three meals a day, you need to give your body time to adjust the blood sugar. Fasting definitely changes how your body handles blood sugar.
Interesting - can you elaborate?
 
Good reminder. I have a Diet Coke habit for sure. I don't feel the effect of caffeine either way (I can function in the morning without caffeine, and I can drink Diet Coke well into the evening and have no trouble falling or staying asleep...is "caffeine resistance/insensitivity" a thing?), but I do wonder/worry if it is too much to pound a few Diet Cokes for a few hours of continued fasting after vigorous fasted strength training.
I think everyone has a personal tolerance to caffeine. It may depend on other factors of your life like sleep, diet, exercise and stress. I think the main problem is that caffeine is often used to mask lifestyle issues like lack of proper sleep or nutrition. You should enjoy caffeine not require it.
Oddly specific! I think I know who you're talking about... ;)(y)
That wasn't intentional.
Interesting - can you elaborate?
This was actually from personal experience. I shouldn't have worded that the way I did. When I went to three balanced meals a day, it took me a couple weeks to feel somewhat normal and not sluggish. Although, I have read on some forums that it does mess with blood sugar. I have no data to back that up though. In the Warrior Diet, Ori Hofmekler speaks about how there's a magnetic draw that brings people back to intermittent fasting styled eating. I've found that to be the case.
 
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Be careful with coffee consumption as well. Coffee will raise cortisol and if you stack that with Intermittent Fasting, it could put your body into a bad hormonal position. Y

That's a great point. I drank 2-4 cups of coffee daily. As I am currently not fasting and assessing things that can contribute to hormonal imbalance I have scaled the coffee habit back to half a cup first thing in AM. Got a solid 8 hrs of sleep last night as well. Everyone's responses are great; reminds me that the body is one complex interrelated system.

Ori Hofmekler's new book The 7 Principles of Stress

@Adam Mundorf Do feel there's new info in this book that make it worth the investment?
 
@Adam Mundorf Do feel there's new info in this book that make it worth the investment?
Yes I do. Ori addresses issues like binge eating, bulimia, anorexia, jet lag and stress mitigation/elimination. He discusses specific foods and spices that help cope with stress and keep your body resilient. He also discusses foods that harm your body and diminish your ability to handle stress. Sugar addiction is a big thing that Ori addresses in the 7 Principle of Stress. This really resonates with me because I used to binge eat sugar and the exercises/approach he lists in the book helped me get better and kick sugar out. Notably he never gives strict parameters to how long someone should fast/under-eat. This is Ori showing that everybody has a different tolerance to stress depending on body, mind, lifestyle, environment and spirit.

In this book Ori lays out his views on how age is just a number. There is a difference between being 70 and feeling 70 compared to being 70 but having the hormonal profile of a 20 year old. Essentially, he lays out a plan to be chronologically old but biologically young.

IMO this is the Warrior Diet refined. The Warrior Diet preached nutritional stress through 20 hours of fasting/under-eating and 4 hours of feasting. Now, it's more adapted to research but not confined by it. It's about spirit, psychology, life and science.

The reason I follow and purchase Ori's work is because he works from the heart. Ori truly practices what he preaches. He realizes that life and nutrition can't be condensed into lab results or research papers, although he understands they have their place. Ori believes that life is a canvas and food,lifestyle and exercise should be an expression of your "Warrior Spirit".

So to put it shortly, yes the book is worth the investment.
 
If an average human stops eating they don't die for something like six weeks. That's how much nutrition is carried in the form of body fat. And for most of that six week period they will, after a short period of adjustment, operate perfectly functionally at a physical level albeit mentally distracted by hunger, at times. Humans don't need to eat six times, three times, twice or even once per day. The only thing we need daily is clean water and, perhaps, a little protein if we want to avoid the small amount of muscle loss occasioned by extended fasting. I've fasted up to four straight days with no calories ingested so probably did lose some muscle but never noticed the difference. And I did feel a bit weird the first couple of times (I remember once feeling faint after a gym session) but then my body adapted and on life went. I think it's easy to overthink this stuff. Body fat exists for a reason. It's okay to rely on it. Even for days at a time
 
Sugar addiction is a big thing that Ori addresses in the 7 Principle of Stress. This really resonates with me because I used to binge eat sugar and the exercises/approach he lists in the book helped me get better and kick sugar out.

That is so true for me. I have a 15 min drive home from work. On stressful days I would grab a share-size of chewy mini sweet tarts (11 servings) and consume the whole thing on the way home. I haven't bought any candy for stress eating in a few weeks, but I still have some dessert after dinner.

I read the Warrior Diet around 2004 (I think). Sounds like the new book may be worth a look.
 
That is so true for me. I have a 15 min drive home from work. On stressful days I would grab a share-size of chewy mini sweet tarts (11 servings) and consume the whole thing on the way home. I haven't bought any candy for stress eating in a few weeks, but I still have some dessert after dinner.

I read the Warrior Diet around 2004 (I think). Sounds like the new book may be worth a look.
Yeah and the thing you have to understand is that it isn't your fault. Your biology is actually working against you. There's a study that says sugar binds to the same receptors as crack cocaine. Plus, sugar is so prevalent from a young age, it's even in baby formulas in substantial amounts. Ori addresses this in the book.

If you really want to kick the habit, you have to eliminate refined sugar completely for a couple months. There are some exercises in the book.

When I gave it up, I found I didn't want it at all anymore. Just wasn't as appealing as a good and frugal home cooked meal. The moment when I realized I defeated binge eating was when I was able to sit down with my family and have desert without feeling guilty or going out afterwards and eating sugar until I became sick.
 
@Adam Mundorf When I tried the Warrior Diet originally, I had berries for breakfast lots of water during the day and then feasted at night. I didn't pay attention to any of the food combining principles or the order in which I consumed the food during the feasting period. With no exercise, I dropped 20 lbs in 2 months which is really all I needed to lose. Looking back on it, I chalk it up to caloric restriction and working a job where I never sat down. Do you adhere to the Warrior Diet or at least the "upgraded" recommendations in the new book? You think it makes a difference to attempt the food combining principles and the order of eating during the feast?

You know we could probably sum up the collective wisdom in this forum and say, "Take the time to get to know your body and eat right for you!" :)
 
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