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Nutrition IF, Cortisol and Leptin

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Take the time to get to know your body and eat right for you!" :)
I like that! I think we are like rats in that we adapt and can pretty much survive on any type of diet, but our ability to thrive (however you measure that) as an individual means your diet may need to be more specific but only the individual can answer that.

I'm not saying we should start eating the trash
 
@Adam Mundorf When I tried the Warrior Diet originally, I had berries for breakfast lots of water during the day and then feasted at night. I didn't pay attention to any of the food combining principles or the order in which I consumed the food during the feasting period. With no exercise, I dropped 20 lbs in 2 months which is really all I needed to lose. Looking back on it, I chalk it up to caloric restriction and working a job where I never sat down. Do you adhere to the Warrior Diet or at least the "upgraded" recommendations in the new book? You think it makes a difference to attempt the food combining principles and the order of eating during the feast?

You know we could probably sum up the collective wisdom in this forum and say, "Take the time to get to know your body and eat right for you!":)
I do adhere to the recommendations. I practice a form of food layering and combining. There are some people who say this doesn't matter but it's always made sense to me. I'm not dogmatic about it but I try my best. For example if my friend wants to go for Chinese I'm not going to tell him No, because I need to eat in a specific order. I'll just have the veggies when I get home.
  • My Main Meal in Order (Starting typically around 3 0r 4pm sometimes later)
  1. Some Fresh Fruit
    1. I may have a couple pieces of 100% Dark Chocolate as well if I'm in the mood.
  2. Cut up veggies
    1. peppers,carrots,cucumbers,celery and tomatoes
  3. Nice Leafy Green Salad
    1. Mainly romaine lettuce and red leaf lettuce
  4. Steamed Vegetables
    1. Lots of Broccoli, Cauliflower,Spinach, Green Beans and Carrots
  5. Protein Source
    1. Either fish,eggs or some steak
    2. Sometimes I'll cook with olive oil or some butter
    3. This is where I incorporate a variety of spices like tumeric, sage, oregano and thyme.
      1. Ori speaks about the benefits of these in the book.
  6. Either Fat or Carbs but Never Both (Fuel Food)
    1. Fats
      1. Variety of nuts.
    2. Carbs
      1. Typically rice alone or mixed with beans or peas.
      2. Sometimes I'll have some Ezekiel Toast.

Food Combination
When Ori speaks about food combining he isn't saying don't mix fat and carbs at all. He's saying don't have a bowl of nuts and a bowl of fruit. But if you want some blueberries with yogurt or some olive oil on a mashed potato that's fine. The thing about food combining is that there isn't much science to back up that it works. But many people find merit in it.

Food Layering
The way that makes sense to me is that I eat/layer my food from light and fresh to more dense. I did just speak with Steve Maxwell last week and he told me it is important to break your fast with something light. Some people are able to break their fasts with burgers and pizza, every time I've done that it's made me feel horrible. I've always just assumed things digest at a different pace and why not eating the things that digest quickest first, so that they aren't stuck behind denser/slower assimilating foods.

Compensation After Fasting
It's important that after finishing a fast you eat quality foods. Practicing Intermittent Fasting and eating junk is a one way ticket to feeling horrible. Your body needs compensation from the deprivation of the fast and the best way to do that is through nutritionally dense healthy food. When Intermittent Fasting, I always think of my main meal as my fuel for the next day. I want quality fuel.

100% the main benefit of intermittent fasting is calorie restriction. There are some other benefits to fasting of course. All this other stuff like the combining of foods is just icing on the cake. It's really dependent on if you even believe in the concepts. If you don't believe in a dietary approach, for sure, it won't work for you.
"Take the time to get to know your body and eat right for you!"
That sums it up perfectly. There are high performance people who eat 3 times a day, 1 time a day, 6 times a day etc. It's all about finding what resonates with you and makes sense to you.
 
When Ori speaks about food combining he isn't saying don't mix fat and carbs at all. He's saying don't have a bowl of nuts and a bowl of fruit.

Why? More to the point, why not?

One of my favourite things....bowl of fruit, pile of nuts and dollops of double cream. I can not think of any reason why that should ever be considered a bad food choice. Ever.
 
Why? More to the point, why not?

One of my favourite things....bowl of fruit, pile of nuts and dollops of double cream. I can not think of any reason why that should ever be considered a bad food choice. Ever.
The only time I saw Ori address it online in detail was here : Ori Hofmekler
 
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Thanks @Adam R Mundorf. Read that and it was what I thought it to be - high fat/high sugar combos, high calorie and nutrient poor.
Fruit and nuts, in my view, are not in that category.
In an interview he does mention trail mix as being an example of wrong food combining. I'm not saying you're wrong because plenty of people say having nuts and fruit together is fine. Ori just says to not combine them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Listened to a podcast where Ori was interviewed about the new book. Really great stuff and I've never heard anyone use the context of intermittent stress exposure and mitigation to enhance health. Very cool.

He said that the research shows that the main benefit to fasting was caloric restriction and there's no reason to fast more than 18ish hours due to creating a higher stress response than what is desirable. I'm not sure the research supports this. Increased HGH production starts to ramp up at the 20+ hour mark and using stored fat for fuel continues for a long time after that. The HGH will preserve lean muscle mass during the fast as well.

Granted, I haven't read the book and I'm not in any way trying to disparage Ori's research or approach, because his actual point sounds like the unique benefits of underfeeding and the stress response and mitigation. I'm wondering if just doing a 24 hour fast 1-2 times per week would accomplish the same benefits that Ori is identifying plus increased fat metabolism and HGH spike.

Regardless, I think I will check the book out; it sounds like there's a lot more there than just the diet itself. I will probably try the eating style out again since it's really easy to maintain, and I think that Ori has a really valid point that caloric restriction will extend life. I would probably throw in some higher caloric days 1-2 per week just to make sure my metabolism doesn't down regulate. @Adam Mundorf - Thanks for the recommendation!
 
Really interesting thread. I'm not sure I buy that there is no reason to fast longer than 18 hours either. Beyond increased HGH production, I think there are also measurable increases in fat metabolism in the 18+ hour range (The Sweet Spot for Intermittent Fasting – The Mission – Medium), and aren't longer fasts supposed to confer much stronger autophagy/cellular 'cleaning' benefits? I'd buy that there is a increased stress response with longer fasts that you need to balance - meaning you do them less frequently and avoid them during times of high stress.

Personally, I go 16-20 hours most days. If I do a hard early am workout (5-6am - usually 2-3x week), I typically have BCAA afterwards, then again a few hours later to get me to the 16 hour period before I have any 'real' food. On non workout days, I've found myself going 16 hours with no calories whatsoever, then do mid/late morning coffee+gelatin+coconut oil (no carbs, but certainly fat and some protein - sometimes two of these across a couple hour period) to get me from 16 to 18-20 hours. For whatever reason, that rhythm seems to click really well with my body.
 
Granted, I haven't read the book and I'm not in any way trying to disparage Ori's research or approach, because his actual point sounds like the unique benefits of underfeeding and the stress response and mitigation. I'm wondering if just doing a 24 hour fast 1-2 times per week would accomplish the same benefits that Ori is identifying plus increased fat metabolism and HGH spike.
The reason for that is because Ori believes in a 24 hour circadian cycle and within that 24 hours you should be fully compensated. It also has to do with optimizing your two nervous systems. It's all about your tolerance to stress and staying within that fine line that's optimal for your body, mind and lifestyle.

With nutrition it seems that everyone is somewhat right. (y)
 
I typically have BCAA afterwards,

You made good points! One thing though is BCAAs break your fast due to the insulin response. I know it's a Lean Gains approach, but it's not necessary. The benefits of the fast are diminished to caloric reduction and the other IF positive hormonal and cellular changes will not take place. If you want more info PM me and I'll send you some links otherwise you can Google it. You might experiment over the course of a few weeks and see if the absence of BCAAs impacts your gains etc... If it doesn't have an impact you might do without so you can take advantage of the benefits of fasting.

The reason for that is because Ori believes in a 24 hour circadian cycle and within that 24 hours you should be fully compensated. It also has to do with optimizing your two nervous systems. It's all about your tolerance to stress and staying within that fine line that's optimal for your body, mind and lifestyle.

Thanks for the explanation! There's merit in exploring that for sure.
 
Good reminder. I have a Diet Coke habit for sure. I don't feel the effect of caffeine either way (I can function in the morning without caffeine, and I can drink Diet Coke well into the evening and have no trouble falling or staying asleep...is "caffeine resistance/insensitivity" a thing?), but I do wonder/worry if it is too much to pound a few Diet Cokes for a few hours of continued fasting after vigorous fasted strength training.

Oddly specific! I think I know who you're talking about... ;)(y)

Interesting - can you elaborate?
I think he moved to Florida...;) and is supplementing with T?!!
A lot of good points you are bringing up here guys!
I would love to chime in but I might come across like a troll ;) and I am a woman for whom IF is even a bit more difficult topic, in my experience and from what I have read.
 
I would love to chime in but I might come across like a troll ;) and I am a woman for whom IF is even a bit more difficult topic, in my experience and from what I have read.

Oh please do @elli ......dietary stuff causes a spike in my cortisol. I've spared the forum with some wine driven rants at the nonsense. It's a form of stress relief for me but realise not everyone will see it that way. I don't know why it rattles me so much to be honest, I'm pretty relaxed about most things but have zero tolerance for dietary mumbo jumbo.
IF isn't the holy grail of nutritional health nor is all the keto madness. And of course, people are searching for ways to affect fat loss and health pursuits and it is perfectly fine and more than reasonable to discuss the negative - sometimes very negative and potentially harmful - aspects of diet and nutrition. I don't think it's discussed enough to be honest and for some reason - as you've said, you don't want to come across as a troll - views and opinions on nutrition can be taken as offensive as you are tackling beliefs. Why food should hold such deep views and opinions? It is something I fail to understand. So go on, spill the beans.....
 
@elli I think you should express your opinions on this (and everything)! What good is this forum (or others for that matter) if we can't express our opinions in a constructive way and learn from each other's experiences. My goal for this thread was to simply indicate my own experiences and provide some encouragement to try something new if anyone has been dogmatically holding to their IF eating style and hitting a wall of sorts.

I've bounced around from different nutritional strategies and styles. Although many things can be beneficial, they must be sustainable for long-term health. I did a keto stint for the neuro-protective benefits as I have epilepsy and it has been proven to help prevent seizures. However... I couldn't keep up with it. My wife was supportive, but neither she nor my kids were doing keto and as I'm sure you can imagine it was hard to try to accomodate my eating style. So I need to have a better approach to nutrition that incorporates the needs of my family to be sustainable.

IF is not the answer for everyone and for some folks it is contra-indicated. I have read that the "rules" are different for women too. I naturally gravitate towards IF because it is sustainable, and I feel great when I do it. These last three weeks have actually been an exercise in discipline learning how to eat breakfast and not be dogmatic about IF. It has been really good and the lesson for me is to not be dogmatic, listen to my body and try something new when the current approach isn't working. I will likely return to IF or perhaps a strategy of underfeeding/overfeeding but it will be truly intermittent as in both hours during the day and days during the week/month.

@ali You make a great point when you bring up the cortisol rise when discussing nutrition and diet, because that was a warning I heard when researching hormonal optimization. You can stress yourself out over figuring out the best nutrition strategies, especially when you are bombarded with so many different and conflicting opinions.
 
I've been doing IF for about 3 months now, not a very long time. My first meal is lunch and I end up with 16-8 windows. Something I have been doing the last weeks with good result is the following: most days I'm not hungry in the morning, so I fast till lunch. Some days I feel abnormally hungry in the morning, so I break the fast. I just figured that if I'm hungry I should eat. I end up doing IF 6 days per week more or less.
 
Please notice: I sometimes count calories although I know it is nonsense, I sometimes do IF if I feel like. I sometimes eata bar of chocolate although it is pure sugar, I sometimes eat too much and way beyond feeling full...it just happens andin most cases I knlw the reason why I do so and can 'forgive' myself. There have been times when I could not...

I would say I am not really contracting to what you have already said. So I will just write down what I experienced and what might bother me with IF (and basically pretty much every kind of diet).
IF is sth which seems to be sold as the cure for almost every person who wants to lose weight or has some kind of disease or wants to improve health in general or wants to perform better in the gym or wants to justify an eating disorder. Probably you can insert gluten sensivity, lactose intolerance or vegan or else in here.
Be sceptic if experts (like the one mentioned above who surely makes some points) trying to sell sth.
Example: a few weeks ago a famous chef and his friend (a doctor of course) were on a TV show, telling people how healthy it is to eat butter, whole fat diary and non-processed food. I agree! The doc supported the chef and praised his recipes in the new book...but did they really told new things? No. Just marketing, buy the book. If you are from normal intelligy you knew that. People are warned to pay attention to hidden sugars...maybe they should start getting rid of the obvious?!
Back to IF.
What I don't understand is why some people are so dogmatic about it. I have done it too for several months. Did I lose weight?Was I feeling better? Not that I can remember. What I do remember is that I freaked out when sth interfers with my eating schedule and I have lost my period.
1. IF can be anti-social e.g. if you are a mother or father having dinner with your kids is an important part of the day. What does a teenaged girl think if mum has weird eating habits? I can tell you from my own experience that you are more likely to develop an ED that
2. IF can mess up your hormones - even more likely for women.

One of the considered most important 'fact' is that IF is natural and our ancestors used to eat like that. Food was not available in that quantity and quality. They sometimes were forced to go for longer periods without food. Their bodies were stressed because of that, like ours nowadays. But the difference is that today we have many other aspects in life which put additional stress on our bodies which they did not have in that amount.
3. IF - forced or free choice? If it is your free choice it might be more stressful because tody food is everywhere. You have to decide against eating several times a day - always conflicting thoughts and feeling bound to your diet.
4. Can you still listen to your body?
What to do if hunger occurs during your non-eating window? Is this the start to feel disconnected to your instincts? Especially women tend to put general rules over individual needs.
IF often goes hand in hand with eating real food and avoid additives. Good aspect! Go for it. It often goes hand in hand with low carb and higher protein (another thing that does not work for every snowflake). Where does that protein come from? Meat? Where does your meat come from? Can you effort 'real' meat? If not you might be better off eating pasta (which contains actually just a few, real, ingredients ;))
Seasonal, regional.
5. Which food choices do you make? Is it just IF or a combination of IF, LC, LCHF, the Zone or Atkins? What is left to eat with a good feeling? What do you allow yourself? (If you are looking for rules in your life ask a judge!)I don' t eat becauseIam not hungry, not because a diet tellsme not to.
6. Are you developing a disordered eating habit? Are you destroying your metabolism?
If your sleep, your appetite and your digestion are fine, then you are doing sth right - says the Traditional Chinese Medicine. And with this I totally agree. Tired and stressed? You are likely to pick sweet and fatty food. Angry? You want sth to chew! Hormones, emotions...
What makes you eat the food you eat?
Reflect yourself! Be honest.
It can take years to figure out what is best for you. It could be IF or not.

Unfiltered thoughts but perhaps you get an idea of what I was trying to say.
 
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Great post elli. It sounds like everyone needs to experiment to find a level of nutritional stress they can deal with. Treat your fasting like you do exercise, you wouldn't walk into your first S&S session and swing the 48kg.

Everything plays a role as your said : lifestyle, sleep, hormones, exercise etc. No one has the same cookie cutter situation. Adopt your diet to your life, not your life to your diet.

Again, awesome post!
 
Great post elli. It sounds like everyone needs to experiment to find a level of nutritional stress they can deal with. Treat your fasting like you do exercise, you wouldn't walk into your first S&S session and swing the 48kg.

Everything plays a role as your said : lifestyle, sleep, hormones, exercise etc. No one has the same cookie cutter situation. Adopt your diet to your life, not your life to your diet.

Again, awesome post!
Thank you!
Just haveo_O discovered some bad spelling mistakes. Hmpphhh...
 
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