Nutrition IF/OMAD & long distance cardio?

[steve-in-kville]

By long distance cardio- things like 12 mile rucks, marathons, ultra's and the like. Has anyone participated in such events on the IF and/or OMAD diet? Like to hear about your experiences and suggestions on eating and training and so forth. Thanks.

 

[mikhael]

Well, a few month back I was rucking with 44lbs backpack in the mountains and have nothing to eat for 48 hours. I'm on keto and IF, thus during this period I had no craving on any issues with the challenge. Keto/IF strategy definitely helped me to survive this event.

 

[steve-in-kville]

Well, a few month back I was rucking with 44lbs backpack in the mountains and have nothing to eat for 48 hours. I'm on keto and IF, thus during this period I had no craving on any issues with the challenge. Keto/IF strategy definitely helped me to survive this event.

Was it a straight through event, as in no sleep? I am intrigued indeed!

 

[mikhael]

Heavy backpack. loooooooot of rucking, up, down, up, down, up, down, little sleep, almost nothing.

 

[steve-in-kville]

Wow.
Someday I want to complete the Ranger challenge... 12 miles under three hours with a 35# ruck.

 

[mikhael]

Wow.
Someday I want to complete the Ranger challenge... 12 miles under three hours with a 35# ruck.

Sounds like solid run.

 

[offwidth]

By long distance cardio- things like 12 mile rucks, marathons, ultra's and the like. Has anyone participated in such events on the IF and/or OMAD diet? Like to hear about your experiences and suggestions on eating and training and so forth. Thanks.

Yes. Lots of times. But not necessarily on purpose, and I wouldn’t recommend it on a regular basis.
I live and sort of train whilst following a mostly IF way of eating. BUT… during a race, or big climb, or other long distance activities I fuel pretty much traditionally.

I have mentioned before that in the past we would (in training) do some pretty big multi-modality ‘depletion day’ training sessions. Eight to ten hours of biking, running, climbing, rucking, bodyweight, KB’s, etc, with no food. I don’t train that way any more, because I know that I can

 

[pet']

Hello,

I did the Ranger Challenge and other military marches "for fun". Basically, I just wanted to see how it went. Usually, I train fasted, first thing in the morning. Most of these marches were done in a fasted state. I remember the Ranger challenge in the woods with lots of ups and downs. It went very well without any food or even water. However, I've always train that way so maybe it plays a role on the long term

A note on "high altitude" (>3000-3500m): keto, from a theoretical standpoint will be slightly less effective because fat oxydation (so "fat for fuel") requires more oxygen than carbs. When O2 concentration gets down, it may become something to consider (but not necessarily an issue)

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[steve-in-kville]

There's a 50k run/hike in September that I've wanted to do for the past few years and this was the year I was gonna do it. Then my son got engaged and it falls on his wedding day... so there goes that. I decided to train to do a Ranger ruck on my own time.

There's a few dudes out there that did 50 and 100 mile rucks as a fundraiser and I thought that would be a bucket list thing for me. In fact, I think one did 150 miles to raise money for veterans.

 

[LarryB]

I train for marathons fasted, but only training. Guess i would fall in line with what @offwidth said. “Train on fats, race on carbs”.

 

[Francisco]

By long distance cardio- things like 12 mile rucks, marathons, ultra's and the like. Has anyone participated in such events on the IF and/or OMAD diet? Like to hear about your experiences and suggestions on eating and training and so forth. Thanks.

Agree with what other members have said.
Most training sessions should be fasted. (At least 12 hours into it, ideally more).
Just after training there is a metabolic-anabolic window. Lasts about one hour. Replenish carbs/protein on a four to one ratio.
Compete eating, specially if events last north of 2 hours. For this some of your training sessions should include eating. Learn to eat and digest when moving, see what works for you, discard what doesn’t.
Intensity (obvioulsy) trumps digesting. A balance must be found.
Shorter events (under 6-12 hours) favor replenishing carbs. Longer events must include protein due to cathabolic process triggered by longer efforts.
Nutrition is an art, and an n=1 experiment…

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Most training sessions should be fasted. (At least 12 hours into it, ideally more).

Fasted Training

There are some benefits to Fasted Training.

However, there nothing wrong with having something to eat prior to training; dependent on what the objective is.

Just after training there is a metabolic-anabolic window. Lasts about one hour.

Dr Brad Schoenfeld Research

Shoenfeld's reasearch dispelled the misconception regarding the need to consume something within an hour after training.

"...Current evidence does not appear to support the claim that immediate (≤ 1 hour) consumption of protein pre- and/or post-workout significantly enhances strength- or hypertrophic-related adaptations to resistance exercise." Source: The effect of protein timing on muscle strength and hypertrophy: a meta-analysis - Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Train on fats, race on carbs”.

Not An Optimal Method

1) Glucoes Dependent

Individuals who have high carbohydrate diets are Glucose Dependent.

There systems are set up to utilize carbohydrates/glucose more effectively that fats, burn fat for energy.

2) Fat Dependent

Individual who are on high fat diets, like the Ketogenic Diet are Fat Dependent.

What's ironic is that research (Volek and Phinnney) demonstrated that once an individual is Keto Adapted, they have the same amount of stored glucose as an individual on a High Carbohydrate Diet.

However, their system are desinged to utilize fats/ketones than carbohydates/glucose.

3) Metabolic Flexibility

Someone who is Metabolically Flexible is able to utilize ketone/fats or glucose/carbohydrates dependent the demands of the activity.

Hybird Car Example

Think of glucose/carbohydrates and ketones/fats like a Hybrid Car.

Going slow it uses Electricity (keones in this example) when you need to go fast it uses gas (in this caase glucose).

Thus, one of the benefits of Intermittent Fasting is that the body learn to utilize the right fuel for the right task, as with a Hybrid Car.

Why A Ketogenic Diet Does Not Increase Metaboic Flexibility



Dr MIke T. Nelson (one of the leading Intermittent Reseachers) does a nice job of breaking it down in this video, (6:22 minutes)

 

[LarryB]

Not An Optimal Method

1) Glucoes Dependent

Individuals who have high carbohydrate diets are Glucose Dependent.

There systems are set up to utilize carbohydrates/glucose more effectively that fats, burn fat for energy.

2) Fat Dependent

Individual who are on high fat diets, like the Ketogenic Diet are Fat Dependent.

What's ironic is that research (Volek and Phinnney) demonstrated that once an individual is Keto Adapted, they have the same amount of stored glucose as an individual on a High Carbohydrate Diet.

However, their system are desinged to utilize fats/ketones than carbohydates/glucose.

3) Metabolic Flexibility

Someone who is Metabolically Flexible is able to utilize ketone/fats or glucose/carbohydrates dependent the demands of the activity.

Hybird Car Example

Think of glucose/carbohydrates and ketones/fats like a Hybrid Car.

Going slow it uses Electricity (keones in this example) when you need to go fast it uses gas (in this caase glucose).

Thus, one of the benefits of Intermittent Fasting is that the body learn to utilize the right fuel for the right task, as with a Hybrid Car.

Why A Ketogenic Diet Does Not Increase Metaboic Flexibility



Dr MIke T. Nelson (one of the leading Intermittent Reseachers) does a nice job of breaking it down in this video, (6:22 minutes)

Good break down, i definitely wasn’t talking about a ketogenic diet. I was more referring to training fasted as training on fats, and racing on carbs as preloading before a race. More in line with what you are describing. Like my whole training cycle has mostly been fasted morning runs with some unfasted afternoon runs sprinkled in. This past weekend i woke up early and got in a good breakfast of oatmeal, some fruit, and a greens supplement drink. During the race i took in some gu’s.

 

[Tobias Wissmueller]

Not An Optimal Method

1) Glucoes Dependent

Individuals who have high carbohydrate diets are Glucose Dependent.

There systems are set up to utilize carbohydrates/glucose more effectively that fats, burn fat for energy.

2) Fat Dependent

Individual who are on high fat diets, like the Ketogenic Diet are Fat Dependent.

What's ironic is that research (Volek and Phinnney) demonstrated that once an individual is Keto Adapted, they have the same amount of stored glucose as an individual on a High Carbohydrate Diet.

However, their system are desinged to utilize fats/ketones than carbohydates/glucose.

3) Metabolic Flexibility

Someone who is Metabolically Flexible is able to utilize ketone/fats or glucose/carbohydrates dependent the demands of the activity.

Hybird Car Example

Think of glucose/carbohydrates and ketones/fats like a Hybrid Car.

Going slow it uses Electricity (keones in this example) when you need to go fast it uses gas (in this caase glucose).

Thus, one of the benefits of Intermittent Fasting is that the body learn to utilize the right fuel for the right task, as with a Hybrid Car.

Why A Ketogenic Diet Does Not Increase Metaboic Flexibility



Dr MIke T. Nelson (one of the leading Intermittent Reseachers) does a nice job of breaking it down in this video, (6:22 minutes)

Do you have any good resources on how to "reach" Metabolic Flexibility? Is this something that can be achieved over time, if so, how?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Do you have any good resources on how to "reach" Metabolic Flexibility? Is this something that can be achieved over time, if so, how?

Your Ultimate Guide to Metabolic Flexibility and Fat Adaption



It can take anywhere from seven to 21 days for your body to adjust or longer depending on how long you were on the diet. Since the definition of metabolic flexibility means you can switch between both energy sources, the ketogenic diet can make you inflexible on the carb end of the spectrum.

 

[SamTX]

I recently picked up a copy of The Uphill Athlete on the recommendation of someone else on this forum. Much of the first part of the book deals with the concept of being "fat-adapted." Does anyone have experience with becoming a "fat-adapted" endurance athlete?

 

[offwidth]

Train on fats and race on carbs. Yes!
I’ve done it. It works.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I recently picked up a copy of The Uphill Athlete on the recommendation of someone else on this forum. Much of the first part of the book deals with the concept of being "fat-adapted." Does anyone have experience with becoming a "fat-adapted" endurance athlete?

Fat Adapt

In post 13 and 16 above, there is some information posted relating to this.

Fat Adapted is usually related to being on the Ketogenic Diet. It takes approximatly three days for your body to adjust to using ketones/fat as fuel.

Once that occurs, you body fuel preverence is fats/ketones rather than glucose. Individual are then Ketone/Fat Dependent.

Their body efficiently utiilize fats but not Glucose/Carbohydrates.

Ketogenic Diet Athletes

Some athlete on the Ketogenic Diet preform well.

While Endurance are more efficient at utilize ketones/body fat, there usually is some part of the race when glucose is needed.

Since Keto Fat Adapted Athlete they are unable to access glucose efficiently.

The information above in Your Ultimate Guide to Metabolic Flexibility and Fat Adaption by Dr Mike T. Nelson explain that in more depth.

Metabolic Flexibility

In most sport and live in general, being Metabolic Flexiblity is more effective.

Your body, like a hybrid car, is able to utilze electricity/ketone or gas/glucose, dependent on the activity need.

The Uphill Athlete

Since I am not familiar with it, I can't comment.

If it recommends Intermittent Fasting as a mean of ensuring the body is available to utilize ketones and glucose, that makes sense.

If it recommends a Ketogenic Diet, it questionable if an optiamal training effect will be elicited.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Train on fats and race on carbs.

The Issue With That

This to some extent covered in the information provide by Dr MIke T. Nelson in post 15.

The issue is that it takes time for the body to adjust if an individual is on a High Carbohydrate Diet and then goes on a Ketogenic Diet.

The same applies with going from a Ketogenic Diet to a Higher Carbohydate.

I’ve done it. It works.

More Detail

It would be interesting to see how you applied it.

To reiterate, the research and anecdotal data indicate it take time for the body to adapt.

Base on the Metabolic Flexibility data, it appears this is a more optimal method for athletes be able access and utilize ketones/fats and glucose/carbohydrates, dependent on the sport or activity