If you're heavy, bodyweight training is also heavy!

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Hello,

@Kozushi
When you start doing even assisted pull up, I am sure it would transfer quite well to an impressive regular barbell curl.

The same rule apply with the OA push up and the regular mililary press.
Get a Heavier Military Press With the One-arm One-leg Push-up | StrongFirst
How to Double Your Kettlebell Press in 6 Weeks Without Touching a Bell | StrongFirst

Kind regards,

Pet'
But I'll add that the one arm pushup engages much more of your body than a military press, and a pushup more than a bench press. While I well understand that the strongest people in the world are the heavy barbell lifters and they deserve the reputation well, my 220lbs blob of weight is plenty heavy enough for me to get strong with, very strong even, and I hope to be able to do things that even heavy barbell lifters cannot in terms of balance, flexibility and body positioning.

I got the new "Next Level Strength" by the Kavadlo brothers. Very interesting stuff as always. I ran their "Get Strong" program before for two months. It was interesting. I'm not going to actually run their new program as I'm on judo and S&S, but I've made a list of 12 moves from the book I'll work on.

I suppose my thinking regarding kettlebell vs barbell vs bodyweight goes as such:

  • barbell: best strength gains in all aspects, but the equipment is cumbersome and awkward. I'm not putting that stuff in my home (well, a barbell or two is fine, but not the bench, cage etc)
  • kettlebell: we're talking about mainly explosive movements here like the snatch and swing, these are what make the kettlebell a unique and useful tool, however if we're talking raw strength kettlebells rank behind the other two kinds of training. Kettlebells are for "strength endurance" it seems, and for violence, which are important things, and kettlebells can stand alone to keep you in a rough and ready fitness state.
  • bodyweight: the heavier you are the better this is for developing strength, and it's relatively safe compared with the other two - kettlebells can fly out of your hands or you can drop them on your head, and barbells can break your floor or you can go too heavy and tear your muscles, put your back out etc. In most parts of most sports and life you are required to be very proficient at moving yourself about more than anything you might be holding. I suppose the biggest sell for bodyweight is that you can do it at home with minimal equipment and make yourself into a tank still.
I have several "serious iron" lifter friends, and I mean guys who bench and pull into the high 600lbs range! These guys still do dips, pullups and other bodyweight moves. They see value in them. One of them switched to bodyweight only for a year once (I think he realized that lifting his own bodyweight is nowhere near 600lbs plus though and got back into the barbell!)

All three have distinctive movements that train you do physically do different things in spite of often the same muscles being worked. This is where your requirements for sport or life might dictate to you which one to emphasize.
 
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Glen

Level 7 Valued Member
But I'll add that the one arm pushup engages much more of your body than a military press, and a pushup more than a bench press. While I well understand that the strongest people in the world are the heavy barbell lifters and they deserve the reputation well, my 220lbs blob of weight is plenty heavy enough for me to get strong with, very strong even, and I hope to be able to do things that even heavy barbell lifters cannot in terms of balance, flexibility and body positioning.

I got the new "Next Level Strength" by the Kavadlo brothers. Very interesting stuff as always. I ran their "Get Strong" program before for two months. It was interesting. I'm not going to actually run their new program as I'm on judo and S&S, but I've made a list of 12 moves from the book I'll work on.

I suppose my thinking regarding kettlebell vs barbell vs bodyweight goes as such:

  • barbell: best strength gains in all aspects, but the equipment is cumbersome and awkward. I'm not putting that stuff in my home (well, a barbell or two is fine, but not the bench, cage etc)
  • kettlebell: we're talking about mainly explosive movements here like the snatch and swing, these are what make the kettlebell a unique and useful tool, however if we're talking raw strength kettlebells rank behind the other two kinds of training. Kettlebells are for "strength endurance" it seems, and for violence, which are important things, and kettlebells can stand alone to keep you in a rough and ready fitness state.
  • bodyweight: the heavier you are the better this is for developing strength, and it's relatively safe compared with the other two - kettlebells can fly out of your hands or you can drop them on your head, and barbells can break your floor or you can go too heavy and tear your muscles, put your back out etc. In most parts of most sports and life you are required to be very proficient at moving yourself about more than anything you might be holding. I suppose the biggest sell for bodyweight is that you can do it at home with minimal equipment and make yourself into a tank still.
I have several "serious iron" lifter friends, and I mean guys who bench and pull into the high 600lbs range! These guys still do dips, pullups and other bodyweight moves. They see value in them. One of them switched to bodyweight only for a year once (I think he realized that lifting his own bodyweight is nowhere near 600lbs plus though and got back into the barbell!)

All three have distinctive movements that train you do physically do different things in spite of often the same muscles being worked. This is where your requirements for sport or life might dictate to you which one to emphasize.
I've heard you say about safety several times regarding bodyweight comparative to other forms of resistance - I've injured my hip and back from squats and Deadlifts but the only time I've seriously hurt my shoulder is from doing one arm push ups - injuries occur from inappropriate movements or loads, whether that comes from a barbell, kettlebell, bands, machines or bodyweight is pretty irrelevant IMO
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
I've heard you say about safety several times regarding bodyweight comparative to other forms of resistance - I've injured my hip and back from squats and Deadlifts but the only time I've seriously hurt my shoulder is from doing one arm push ups - injuries occur from inappropriate movements or loads, whether that comes from a barbell, kettlebell, bands, machines or bodyweight is pretty irrelevant IMO
I reinjured my right shoulder a few years ago doing a one arm hang on the chinup bar, so I'm living proof of bodyweight being dangerous too, but I think for most movements with bodyweight you just won't be able to do them if they're too heavy (I can't do an elbow lever yet for instance) and another thing is that also for most of them, if your strength gives out and you collapse, you'll just sort of roll over onto your side or belly, you aren't going to drop a weight onto your head or chest.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

@Kozushi
Here is the article about how to perform the tactical pull up:
One Good Rep: How to Perform the Perfect Pull-up | StrongFirst

If this sounds easy, this is always possible to scale it:
- slow eccentric and "normal" concentric
- weighted version
- combination of the two previous

Regarding injury, I also get injured on my lats while training the front lever. This was mainly a matter of training volume, meaning probably some kind of over training.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
another thing is that also for most of them, if your strength gives out and you collapse, you'll just sort of roll over onto your side or belly, you aren't going to drop a weight onto your head or chest.
This is another reason I really like my sandbags - bailing on them just makes a satisfying thud.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Hello,

@Kozushi
Here is the article about how to perform the tactical pull up:
One Good Rep: How to Perform the Perfect Pull-up | StrongFirst

If this sounds easy, this is always possible to scale it:
- slow eccentric and "normal" concentric
- weighted version
- combination of the two previous

Regarding injury, I also get injured on my lats while training the front lever. This was mainly a matter of training volume, meaning probably some kind of over training.

Kind regards,

Pet'
I get the impression the hollow posture involves placing the feet a bit forward and your back and hips a bit back. This allows you to sort of fit yourself around the bar. Makes sense. I hope I'm understanding this properly.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
This is another reason I really like my sandbags - bailing on them just makes a satisfying thud.
Sandbags sound great. It's like kettlebells or bodyweight - you have a set weight and you learn how to manipulate it. Sure, after you can do 20 something reps with something in multiple sets you're probably best to move to something heavier, but honestly I ain't ever getting that good with bodyweight exercises nor with 32kg+ kettlebells the way I've learned to handle them at SF.

I've gotten quite intrigued by bodyweight exercise recently due to how I need bodyweight mobility for judo, but also I think for virtually any kind of athletic endeavour and for survival/rescue type stuff.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

I get the impression the hollow posture involves placing the feet a bit forward and your back and hips a bit back. This allows you to sort of fit yourself around the bar. Makes sense. I hope I'm understanding this properly
Yes. Basically, if you strongly engage your glutes, core and legs, you'll naturally tend to get this hollow position ;)

From there, several options: you can either:
- maintain a contraction of the shoulder blades
- starting from a pure dead hang position (shoulder blades are not engaged).

Sandbags sound great. It's like kettlebells or bodyweight - you have a set weight and you learn how to manipulate it. Sure, after you can do 20 something reps with something in multiple sets you're probably best to move to something heavier, but honestly I ain't ever getting that good with bodyweight exercises nor with 32kg+ kettlebells the way I've learned to handle them at SF.
As you can perform club training, it can be interesting to add this kind of routine to a bodyweight one, especially when you practice a martial art, because it will give you some kind of weighted mobility, while still strengthening the whole body (balance, power, strength, endurance).

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

JohnDoeman

Level 2 Valued Member
Seems to me to be a lot of unsubstantiated opinions, many of which are all over the place. Seems everyone here is dancing around a point that nobody seems to have yet landed on. Whether it is kettlebells, barbells, calisthenics, stones, rocks...etc the real premise behind utilizing these TOOLS is to create tension in the working muscle. The method really does not matter much. Though, if you can FORCE tension into the muscle while doing a regular set of push-ups you can make yourself stronger, build muscle, increase stability, and improve joint strength while using easier, safer movements or lighter weight. I can perform 10 normal bodyweight squats and make it feel like those 10 bodyweight squats were done with 2-3 times my bodyweight. "Skin-tearing pump" is an understatement. Additionally, I feel my legs are far stronger and more stable than they have been since starting only doing calisthenics (this goes for the rest of my body too).

I did not come to this realization on my own, I watched and listened to Mark Schifferle and his points made so much sense, and were so simple, that it was almost embarassing (actually, not almost).
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Seems to me to be a lot of unsubstantiated opinions, many of which are all over the place. Seems everyone here is dancing around a point that nobody seems to have yet landed on. Whether it is kettlebells, barbells, calisthenics, stones, rocks...etc the real premise behind utilizing these TOOLS is to create tension in the working muscle. The method really does not matter much. Though, if you can FORCE tension into the muscle while doing a regular set of push-ups you can make yourself stronger, build muscle, increase stability, and improve joint strength while using easier, safer movements or lighter weight. I can perform 10 normal bodyweight squats and make it feel like those 10 bodyweight squats were done with 2-3 times my bodyweight. "Skin-tearing pump" is an understatement. Additionally, I feel my legs are far stronger and more stable than they have been since starting only doing calisthenics (this goes for the rest of my body too).

I did not come to this realization on my own, I watched and listened to Mark Schifferle and his points made so much sense, and were so simple, that it was almost embarassing (actually, not almost).
Hehehe. If I already knew it all I wouldn't waste my time asking questions about it. Hahaha!

The Kavadlos are also big on full, proper movements, and so is SF of course. The Kavadlos mention how doing a full range of motion correctly will give you more strength than doing incomplete ranges of motion loaded with weight. I notice this especially with chinups. I can do lots of half chinups, this is no big deal, but full chinups stretching out my shoulders and arms completely at the bottom and coming up clearly over the bar with my chin, this is a superior exercise.
 

JohnDoeman

Level 2 Valued Member
@Kozushi - Well I had to swallow my own pride and regress to easier movements. I do normal pushups, angled rows, normal bodyweight squats...etc despite being capable of 10+ pullups, headstand presses, almost being able to do a real pistol (takes a 25lbs counter-weight)... you get the idea (fyi I am 5'6" and 250lbs). I feel stronger after a few weeks of this than I have in the last few years of switching to calisthenics.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
@Kozushi - Well I had to swallow my own pride and regress to easier movements. I do normal pushups, angled rows, normal bodyweight squats...etc despite being capable of 10+ pullups, headstand presses, almost being able to do a real pistol (takes a 25lbs counter-weight)... you get the idea (fyi I am 5'6" and 250lbs). I feel stronger after a few weeks of this than I have in the last few years of switching to calisthenics.
Heck, just regular pushups are amazing! Some of the best judoka of the past almost did just them for their callisthenics!
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

Heck, just regular pushups are amazing! Some of the best judoka of the past almost did just them for their callisthenics!
True !

I would even add that even the OA push ups can make you insanely strong if correctly performed. For instance, if you do not make some kind of "corkscrew" motion with your torso it builds insane anti-torsion and abs.

Any kind of push ups are now a staple of my routine and can easily be scaled depending on what we are training for (strength, power, endurance...).

A 100+kg guy who hits OA push up or OAOL must have a huge pressing strength and a great global upper body strength. Sure you are this kind of monster @Kozushi !

The same logic remains true about the squats and their regresssion / progression (from the regular bdw squat to the pistol or even loaded pistol)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
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