Bodyweight Increasing pull ups with harder progressions

[offwidth]

When a pull up max rep is stated, say 20, is that dead hang, full hollow tension?

I suppose that's a matter of opinion. In my books I would say yes.

 

[ali]

I suppose that's a matter of opinion. In my books I would say yes.

thought that would be the case!

 

[305pelusa]

When a pull up max rep is stated, say 20, is that dead hang, full hollow tension?

Dead hang for sure.

But you might be interested to hear that the Calisthenics community seems to be slowly shying away from the Hollow Pull-up. The Pelvis should still be posteriorly tilted of course; you don't want to be arching your lower back. But you don't have to protract and "spread out" your scapulae anymore. This is the "Fighter" position Pavel recommends. But it seems that doing the opposite (contracting your upper back, retracting your scapulae, keeping your chest up... whatever name you want to put on the cue) is gaining a lot of popularity lately as well.

Seeing as how the Pull-up is mostly meant as an upper back strengthener, I agree that you want to have a peak contraction of the upper body at the top. I think it's a good shift in ideology.

And no, I'm not just saying that to say that Pavel is wrong. It's sad that I have to add that disclaimer nowadays but I'm not making this up. A good video to show what I mean:

 

[Steve Freides]

@305pelusa, I don't think one has to choose one kind of pullup or another. I _still_ cannot do a single bodybuilder type (non-hollow) pullup and get my chest to the bar - I'm working on those because I can do the hollow kind pretty well already.

We need to remember that the pullup in StrongFirst has tactical origins - it's done for carryover to things like climbing over a wall or into a window.

I will also add that there are some things I agree with, and some I don't, in that video:

E.g., the second "tip" is to always use chalk so you get the most reps. Getting the most reps isn't my goal in the first place, and I have never used chalk for anything and don't have any plans to start. Nothing wrong with chalk if it's in keeping with your goals, but I don't agree with calling not using it a mistake.

The business about not crossing the legs - I have heard elsewhere that, for a bodybuilder, chest-to-bar style of pullup, it's actually better to cross the legs. I don't know why it's better, but it's how I practice that type of pullup.

The section on rest periods - rest periods are a complex subject and it's dealt with here as simply telling us to take shorter rests when we're doing high-rep sets.

IOW, there are a lot of assumptions being made in that video, that everyone has the same goals and that there's one way to use a pullup to achieve them.

-S-

 

[305pelusa]

@305pelusa, I don't think one has to choose one kind of pullup or another.

Yeah, my point exactly. It doesn't have to be 20 Pull-ups with the Hollow position. When people make the arbitrary rule of "20 Pull-ups before X", Hollow or not will be ok. As long as they're deadhang.

So once again, not saying you have to choose one or the other. Rather, both are fine. They don't have to be 20 Hollow. I don't know how much clearer I can say this.

I will also add that there are some things I agree with, and some I don't, in that video:

E.g., the second "tip" is to always use chalk so you get the most reps. Getting the most reps isn't my goal in the first place, and I have never used chalk for anything and don't have any plans to start. Nothing wrong with chalk if it's in keeping with your goals, but I don't agree with calling not using it a mistake.

The business about not crossing the legs - I have heard elsewhere that, for a bodybuilder, chest-to-bar style of pullup, it's actually better to cross the legs. I don't know why it's better, but it's how I practice that type of pullup.

The section on rest periods - rest periods are a complex subject and it's dealt with here as simply telling us to take shorter rests when we're doing high-rep sets.

IOW, there are a lot of assumptions being made in that video, that everyone has the same goals and that there's one way to use a pullup to achieve them.

-S-

I posted the video for the tip about not letting the chest cave so that people could visually see what the difference is. I'm not necessarily championing the other 9 things he talks about. Obviously he aimed that video at his own fanbase for his own channel and for that particular population, he believes them to be good ideas. He calls them "mistakes" for clickbait; I'm sure if you actually sat down with him and told him you didn't use chalk and were fine without it, he'd be perfectly ok with that.

Of course, take it out of context and put it in a BBing forum or whatever and it doesn't make as much sense.

Regardless, that wasn't even the point I was making. I didn't even watch all of the video. I was just looking for something to show what I meant.

 

[Karen Smith]

I'm with @Steve Freides on this one.. I would have to disagree with some of this video and think that very possibly due to the type of pullup bar being used and the height of the guy could be one reason for not doing a bit more hollow.

Just for reference - in the SFB we teach the tactical hollow hang pullup then discuss and practice other varieties that would be best depending on the goal. One example would be the bodybuilder style pullup that would have the most carryover to the bench press for the SFL.

 

[ali]

I don't know if this is right or wrong, to be honest.....on a bar I retract my scaps. On rings too but not so much in neutral grip, which is what I do most often. False grip leading to muscle up training, they are protracted on the pull, retracted for the dip. Again, don't know if this is right but it feels the most natural, for me that is. Maybe it should be the other way around!?

 

[305pelusa]

@Karen Smith : Here's what would clear everything up.

If you could post a video of yourself doing a Hollow Pull-up from the side, that'd be great. Front and back shots, even better. Ideally wear a tank top/sports bra/whatever you're comfortable with that lets us see your shoulders and upper back. Anything except the all-black SF shirt. You guys keep throwing that Hollow Body Pull-up term around but I still don't quite know what you mean. I've asked you both in the past but never quite got back to me:

Tactical Pullup and Scapula Retraction

 

[Steve Freides]

I posted the video for the tip about not letting the chest cave so that people could visually see what the difference is. I'm not necessarily championing the other 9 things he talks about.

I didn't get that from reading your post, @305pelusa.

-S-

 

[305pelusa]

I didn't get that from reading your post, @305pelusa.

-S-

Should've just linked it directly to the minute when he showed the scapulae position. I didn't realize people would get hung up on the rest of the video that was unrelated to the point at hand.

I don't know if this is right or wrong, to be honest.....on a bar I retract my scaps. On rings too but not so much in neutral grip, which is what I do most often. False grip leading to muscle up training, they are protracted on the pull, retracted for the dip. Again, don't know if this is right but it feels the most natural, for me that is. Maybe it should be the other way around!?

What you describe is not only correct; it's something I can tell you've understood from actually training. Not just because you said "this is just what I do", but because anyone who actually spends significant time on neutral ring Pull-ups or Muscle-up will very quickly come to your same conclusion. The Muscle-up scapulae action is actually really important (and it's very similar to back flipping, if you've ever worked on those).

So here I was trying to explain something to you and needlessly getting into a discussion with a poster (and another who sided with him) about chalk (?) and the likes when you knew the answer intuitively all along. Good stuff man. I like that. You're one of the smart ones here

 

[ali]

Thanks for that @305pelusa. I bumble along, more by accident than design, haha! Had a lot of accidents mind, design is probably the better route!
Protracting the scaps on a bar requires good elbow and wrist rom, would that be a limiting factor or at least a sticking point for some.?...and thus pull ups are bad for elbow flare ups! Most of us, certainly beyond a certain age, will have cramped up elbows and wrists from too much bad posture, device time and stressed death grip driving. Neutral grip counters that somewhat, I remember Pavel saying something along those lines somewhere. So neutral for me for sure!

 

[Steve Freides]

Should've just linked it directly to the minute when he showed the scapulae position. I didn't realize people would get hung up on the rest of the video that was unrelated to the point at hand.

People aren't hung up on the rest of the video. <sigh>

You guys keep throwing that Hollow Body Pull-up term around but I still don't quite know what you mean. I've asked you both in the past but never quite got back to me:

StrongFirst teaches a bodyweight course and certification. I have suggested to you, more than once, that you take the course or the cert if you'd like to understand our approach. I renew that suggestion. No one leaves the course not understanding what we mean, I assure you.

-S-

 

[pet']

Hello,

Related to shoulder work and scapula for the muscle up:


Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[305pelusa]

StrongFirst teaches a bodyweight course and certification. I have suggested to you, more than once, that you take the course or the cert if you'd like to understand our approach. I renew that suggestion. No one leaves the course not understanding what we mean, I assure you.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think it's worth my money. I would be interested in becoming an instructor. I think someone who can Front Lever, One-arm Chin, HS Press and has spent years working on the Planche (and is getting damn close) would be a worthwhile addition to the team.

Would love to become sub-Chief of SFB, I think you guys could use some fresh blood who trains calisthenics day in day out who can help you keep up with other certifications (like the PCC) where the instructors themselves are also extremely experienced and can perform just about anything.

Good money for the both of us. Think about @Karen Smith .

 

[Steve Freides]

@305pelusa, one step at a time - take the cert and become an instructor. I'm sure you would be a very worthwhile addition to the team. If you let me know far enough in advance, I will ask to be there as an assistant.

-S-

 

[305pelusa]

@305pelusa, one step at a time - take the cert and become an instructor. I'm sure you would be a very worthwhile addition to the team. If you let me know far enough in advance, I will ask to be there as an assistant.

-S-

I can't afford 1200 dollars to take a certification on a hobby of mine. I'm not in the fitness industry; it doesn't make financial sense to spend 3 months of rent in this. I'm not even sure I'd pay that to be with the best of the best (like Ido Portal's week-long Movement Camp in Thailand).

If you wave the fee, I'm all ears. It doesn't make sense for me to pay that much just to have the opportunity to maybe become leadership. You know my advice on calisthenics is on point, you know I walk the talk. If you're interested in bringing in somebody who could potentially change the curriculum for the better and make bring SF's calisthenics to PCC or GMB's internship level, then bring me in for a "test run" and "interview" in a Cert. I wouldn't attend the Cert to "learn"; I would attend so you can see I know my stuff.

 

[Steve Freides]

@305pelusa, it doesn't sound like you're interested in learning what we have to teach and, if that's the case, there's no reason for you to attend our cert.

One motto of ours, which I hear not only at our certs and courses but all the time at our leadership gatherings is, "I am a teacher of strength; I am a student of strength." Being able to do something, and understanding the principles involved and being able to teach those principles - those are two different, albeit related, things. I am delighted that you're good at bodyweight exercise. And if I've misunderstood anything you've said above or earlier, I apologize.

But based on what you've posted here, you do not understand our approach to things; it's my hope not to teach you the "One True Way" to do anything, but to help you understand principles on which our system is based. Everything we do is based on putting our principles into practice. Our courses and certs are the best way, hands down, to understand what StrongFirst is about.

-S-

 

[305pelusa]

@305pelusa, it doesn't sound like you're interested in learning what we have to teach and, if that's the case, there's no reason for you to attend our cert.

I'm interested in learning. I'm also interested in becoming part of their leadership. Think of it as me applying to work with you. You wouldn't pay a company 1200 dollars to work for them right? Why should I pay an exorbitant amount of money just to have the opportunity to become part of your leadership? Either you are looking for somebody who is well versed in Calisthenics and can give you true perspective ("why is the HSPU still being taught arched and with back to wall?" for example), in which case bring me in. If not, that's cool too.

But pay just to get that chance? Paying money to rise through the ranks? Nonsense.

But based on what you've posted here, you do not understand our approach to things; it's my hope not to teach you the "One True Way" to do anything, but to help you understand principles on which our system is based. Everything we do is based on putting our principles into practice. Our courses and certs are the best way, hands down, to understand what StrongFirst is about.

I think I have a pretty good grasp on your principles. "Tension", "wedging", "lat packing", practice instead of workout, etc. Remember, SF simply reverse engineers what the pros do automatically. They're not some magical cues and set of progressions; they're things everybody naturally learns as they get stronger.

What I am offering is experience in some higher level calisthenics; something SFB leadership lacks. It's not just about being a good coach and it's not just about training a lot. I believe you need a mix.

Makes sense to me that you'd want to recruit a lot of focused talent for the SFB leadership, so think it over @Karen Smith .

 

[Harald Motz]

@305pelusa sounds your on the breakthrough to invent the wheel and anounce your own certification, a pity that the wheel is re-invented already. But until then, countenance please. Just my opinion.

 

[Sergej]

ok, the interaction between 305pelusa ans steve is priceless

to Mr. Freides and other certified SFBs:

in all due respect, but considering the calisthenics community, there are countless people, all over the world, in all genders, races and ages, who are more progressed, more advanced and more knowledgable in bodyweight movments, including the so called "our-way-cues" (by the way: WHY? did invent them???),than any SFB instructor.
i am not saying this to sound rude.
it´s just a reality check.
look at the things HIT RICHARDS, TEAM WINGATE or all the countless ukrainien and russian folks do and you will know what i mean.