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Kettlebell Injuries on S&S

Pavel.Kosenkov said:
I will revive the thread.
After a while, I am at swings and getups again. I do not have re-injury yet, but my sgoulde around my AC begins to nag.
It turns out that I did have AC separation there, probably grade 3 ( from my GP words), but long ago.
Its not a 2 hand swing that provokes.
I was wondering - would it be smart to exclude a 1H swing from S&S practice for a while?
In this case - if it worse, I would know that it is probably the TGU to blame. If not - I will try to reintroduce 1H swing in a month.
In general - did anyone had AC issues, or shoulder (top, top-front) issues from 1H swings?
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Isolating an exercise to determine what’s the culprit and then reintegrating it gradually is a good idea.

I’ve had ACJ irritation from 1HSwings.

Thanks,
Sam Goldner, DPT
 
Alright.
I was doing 2 months of get-ups and 2 hand swings, and my shoulders were holding up.

After about 4 weeks of re-introducing the 1 hand swing, very moderate 300 reps per week volume, I am facing the same overuse problem with my right shoulder: I can press the kettlebell pain free, but my shoulder will hurt on the top of the swing and on the back-swing.

My medical history includes the AC joint injury on the trouble side. My form is OK, my shoulders are square.

So, according to my logbook - 2 months of THSW and TGU is fine. After that, 4 weeks of OASW with a very light 16kg + the same TGU = problem.
Clean and press does not hurt. Snatch is fine. What does - OASW, and the front rack position in the bottom of the squat - the front of the shoulder. Pushup will give trouble as well.
For me it looks like an overuse / impingement issue.

So far I have started on stopping what I do and ibuprofen to reduce the inflammation.

My conclusion is: I cannot productively use a program that relies on OASW as a main driver. I can do the move - I cannot train it.
The plan is: drop the exercise until the shoulder heals. After that - reduce the volume to 100 reps a week max and practice it as a skill. There are different ways to train anti-rotation.

The specific plan would be switching to clean-press-squat with a 2 hand swing finisher. Use low volume TGU-s on a warmup. Get stable progress, then re-introduce low volume OASW.

I would appreciate comments on my plan.
 
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Agreed on two-arm swings and the Iron Cardio (I believe that is what you are referring to) focus.

Watch the overhead volume and if possible get a session with a physical therapist that works with overhead/throwing athletes to get an individualized approach to your shoulder.
 
Pavel.Kosenkov said:
My form is OK, my shoulders are square.
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Perhaps I missed the middle of this thread, but there are a lot of things one can think about, a lot of cues one can choose from, when you're doing the one-arm swing. In addition to all the good advice you've received, consider - if you haven't already - working with an instructor who's got a bag of suggestions you can try and see if some of those will set your shoulder up for success. There are just so many cues you can think about, many of which might make no difference, but if you can find the ones that might make a difference for you, then all the experimenting will be worthwhile.

My absolutely favorite cue comes from the original RKC book if memory serves, and I use it both when I press overhead and when I do one-arm swings, and it's to imagine your elbow as a source from which energy flows in both directions. So when I'm doing one-arm swings, or presses, or getups, I'm thinking that the energy from my elbow is 'pushing' my upper arm back into my shoulder as well as 'pushing' my forearm and the weight up. I think part of the reason it's such a valuable cue is that not only is it helping solidify your shoulder, it's helping solidify your elbow, which can be a tricky thing to accomplish.

-S-
 
You got two very good gems above my comment..

What I would recommend is that you work with an instructor as well in the near future..

The 16kg is a light weight for most healthy adult males and if it is already poisoning you, there is a very high possibility that your form needs adjustments
 
Thanks for the advice, guys. I am working with the instructor, and my form is good. Keeping the shoulder back and down on the swing is not really difficult. In general - I don't believe that it should take half a year to learn OASW. I have learned barbell clean much faster.
Considering the fact that the problem manifests after about 4 weeks of training, it is not really weight related (I have had it with 16 and with 24 kg ), it is asymmetrical (just one shoulder) and the structure involved has a prior injury - I would assume that there is more than a bad form that's going on.
Unless of course my swings are drastically different on 2 sides (which I have not observed).
@Brett Jones - I think that IC with a low frequency OASW (when I will be able to do it) would be the best, indeed. I just can't seem to build up the momentum on the S&S.
 
Steve Freides said:
My absolutely favorite cue comes from the original RKC book if memory serves, and I use it both when I press overhead and when I do one-arm swings, and it's to imagine your elbow as a source from which energy flows in both directions. So when I'm doing one-arm swings, or presses, or getups, I'm thinking that the energy from my elbow is 'pushing' my upper arm back into my shoulder as well as 'pushing' my forearm and the weight up. I think part of the reason it's such a valuable cue is that not only is it helping solidify your shoulder, it's helping solidify your elbow, which can be a tricky thing to accomplish.
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This is a great cue. I have heard it before - for the press and a getup. But I will also try to apply it for my swings when I will recover. Thank you.
 
Pavel.Kosenkov said:
This is a great cue. I have heard it before - for the press and a getup. But I will also try to apply it for my swings when I will recover. Thank you.
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Your plan looks solid. I wonder what would happen if you start even lighter than 16kg because of your injury?

A lighter version of an exercise that hurts might help healing? I do very light TGUs. Its great for my shoulder, but because I can’t raise my left arm properly, I would most probably hurt my shoulder if I do 16kg TGU. I use horizontal pushes to build strength and vertical ones to build mobility so I keep them very light.
 
When I had impingement it was aggravated by bony spurs inside the joint. Mine was also after old injury and some arthritis was present.
I'd recommend getting some medical advice if you are being advised you've got good form.
 
Pete L said:
When I had impingement it was aggravated by bony spurs inside the joint. Mine was also after old injury and some arthritis was present.
I'd recommend getting some medical advice if you are being advised you've got good form.
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Going this Friday, but they will probably dismiss me.
The only thing I can think about is shoulder packing - but I am already actively working on it.
This is my last swing session. It's a pity that my injured shoulder is not facing the camera though...
 
1H swing injured side, front and side plane

This is as far as I can correct it myself. The RPE needs to be about 50% of what I try to do. I am also using the rubber mat width to mark my foot position. This does feel wide for me, but the contact point on the inner thigh is better.
Also, I see that I can hinge later. It's hard to keep every item in focus - I was thinking about my shoulder packing and the contact point.

Special thanks to @Brett Jones for the cue from the article about "pushing the ground with the feet and leaving footprints" - this makes it feel different (!). Tall plank requires patience and effort.
@Steve Freides - thanks for the elbow cue, I will take it in for the swing as well.
 
That's a very high swing! Generally chest or shoulder height is recommended.

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Also I notice your arm is leading your body to some degree both on the upswing and the downswing, and generally keeping the arm closer to the torso can help. A good corrective drill is the "low swing." Per the SFG manual, "There is a lot to be learned by performing low swings." The drill says to swing to the height of the pelvis or belly button to learn to focus energy/power while maintaining the same hip hinge and form. Remember to aim to be standing tall and level at the top of the swing, no matter the height.

Your set-up, hip hinge, and explosiveness all look great.
 
Have you solved your problem ?

Some tips from me:

1) Maybe try to pull the hand and the shoulder further back. The shoulder should be packed. The kettlebell should not be allowed to pull the shoulder out of the socket.

2) Once in a while I like to watch how SFG instructors perform the swing, snatch etc etc. Then I video record myself and watch the video of myself. And I ask myself if there are some similarities here or some non-similarities. Then I can try to train a bit lighter and think about how I perform the exercise and if I can make small corrections. There are a lot of details even to a "simple" exercise like the one-hand swing. Some bodies are more sensitive than others. My father is 70 and can deadlift 100 kilo with crappy technique. One of my friend is 40, strong and fit an he cannot even think about the exercise deadlift without getting some aches in his lower-back. Everyone has a different anatomy and some of us have to be very strict with out technique in order to prevent pain and injuries.

3) Every time I have pain in the shoulder I just start doing some exercises for the back of my shoulder. You have wall slides, band pull apart, band pull apart with bent elbows at the hight of the navel, the Y-exercise (you lie on the stomach having your arms in front of you in an Y shape an lifting them), windmills, kettlebell armbar, crawling. The saying goes that for most people the front side of the shoulder is overdeveloped and the back side is underdeveloped. You mention that you are a dancer, or maybe even a professional dancer. Some dancers like ballet-dancer do a lot of lifting of people in front of them and that can tax the front of the shoulders to a large extent and one risk having an imbalance between front and back of the shoulder.

I also like to do rowing with bands or kettlebells with proper form and push-ups.

I hope this helps.
 
You mention that you are a dancer, or maybe even a professional dancer
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@Anders, Just an avid amateur. Thanks for the post. I am aware about pulling and the shoulder. I was just hoping to avoid extra corrective exersises when I have switched to the kettlebells :) .

@Anna C , thank you for the tip about the low swing, and your time. I will try this, as I will be rebuilding my swing.
The height is not intentional. The bell is light for my hips, but heavy for my shoulders. I had a bodyweight barbell power clean.
 
Steve Freides said:
@Pavel.Kosenkov, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

The first order of business is to stop doing what hurts.

Second would be to ask your SFG instructor's opinion as to whether or not your form might be responsible for your injuries.

Also second :) would be to check with a medical professional to learn of the extent of any damage.

In the meantime, walk or do something else that doesn't hurt. And if it's overuse, remember that the cure will be rest.

-S-
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I developed a sharp pain below my right knee, high up on the shin, during the part of the getup with the bell in my left hand where I go up to half kneeling and then stand up. I showed a Strongfirst video of the getup to my doctor. When he saw the windshield wiper motion he told me it was bad to twist my knee like that and he even commented on me twisting my knee in the visit record. Moral of the story is your doctor is the last person you want exercise advice from.
 
Jeff said:
I developed a sharp pain below my right knee, high up on the shin, during the part of the getup with the bell in my left hand where I go up to half kneeling and then stand up. I showed a Strongfirst video of the getup to my doctor. When he saw the windshield wiper motion he told me it was bad to twist my knee like that and he even commented on me twisting my knee in the visit record. Moral of the story is your doctor is the last person you want exercise advice from.
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What a pity situation it is. I have doctors in my family and I respect doctors and science, but orthopedics lack of understanding of exercising make me question the knowledge of all of them unfortunately.

“You are almost 50, you must not push up”
“Do leg curl and leg press machines instead of squat. They are healthier.”
Two quotes from two famous orthopedics. What a pity. Leg press machine … Btw, if there is one destructive exercise for not so flexible people, it is the leg press machine. If you are stiff, and if you try to do nice full ROM leg press with leg press machine, your back will give up soon. I am lucky that, I thought to my self two years ago, about machines, how can they know better than my body how to move. And stop using them.

Btw, machines can have a place in your training, but I think that is for experts instead of beginners. If you know what you do well, you can use machines no problem. But otherwise they can be dangerous much more dangerous than KBs.
 
Jeff said:
When he saw the windshield wiper motion he told me it was bad to twist my knee like that and he even commented on me twisting my knee in the visit record. Moral of the story is your doctor is the last person you want exercise advice from.
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A lot of people, myself included, have found that the windshield wiper is hard on the knee and causes pain. StrongFirst has even changed the standard to allow for a variant in the movement because of this.
 
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