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Kettlebell Injuries on S&S

Pavel.Kosenkov

Level 5 Valued Member
Guy, a quick question.

If this thread should be moved to an appropriate place, please do so. This is my first post.
I was wondering how to deal with injuries on S&S program. This looks like overuse, I am already applying some strategies, but I wonder what is the general advice.
My body weight is 68, I have got my issues working with 24kg across, simple and sinister. Almost daily practice.
1. AC joint, right side, on a 1 arm swing started giving me trouble. This feels in front of the joint, when the kettlebell is going into the hike pass position.
2. Right elbow. The getup - from 'to the elbow' to 'to the hand' transition. Elbow pain, cracking, sometimes feeling of the elbow locking up. As a consequence - pain during supinated elbow extension, like for the chinup. I know what I am talking about, I used to do 15-17 chins with no pain.

For my getup I have already adjusted my right arm position when pushing off to my hand by turning it 30-40 degrees clockwise (to minimize the moment arm, this was clearly overloading the elbow in the way it was not supposed to be loaded).

All those injuries are recent.
What would be general advice? Except for a form check, I am working with an SFG instructor personally on that.
Like: drop the load, frequency, alter the movements, or something else like that?
 
@Pavel.Kosenkov, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

The first order of business is to stop doing what hurts.

Second would be to ask your SFG instructor's opinion as to whether or not your form might be responsible for your injuries.

Also second :) would be to check with a medical professional to learn of the extent of any damage.

In the meantime, walk or do something else that doesn't hurt. And if it's overuse, remember that the cure will be rest.

-S-
 
+1 to Steve's advice above. I'd put money on both being related, in your shoes I'd go and see a good physiotherapist and demonstrate the movements you are doing.
 
I am a very not flexible person. I have injuries on elbows from doing ring dips. Now I just do KB floor presses. I discovered that putting pressure on my elbow in the extreme bent position was the problem. I also have overuse injury on my forearms from Swings. For this I purchased a Mobility Star from Rogue. I "scrape" the muscles in my forearme with baby oil after workouts. Its like a Gua Shaw tool.
 
What's your age?

I've been doing S&S now for going on about 18 weeks. I'm in my mid 40's and I've had to listen to my body as I go. Specifically on number of training days in a given week. Some weeks it's been one or two, some it's been five. Even if it's five some weeks I start with a set of goblet squats and I'm like "that's feeling tight and not right". Those days I start my swings gingerly and am feeling for flaws in my technique, or impingements in various places (old injuries).

Some days I'm just not feeling it, and drop down a weight for swings and/or getups and focus on technique, or doing a more difficult version with a lighter weight. Other days I can go heavier than I probably should. And then yet occasionally on really bad days I'm like; "screw it" and instead skip a day to recover and work on stretching, or mobility movements, hanging from a pullup bar, or just go for a 1-2 mile walk in the neighborhood.

I'm finding diet and sleep also matter way more than I realized.

I'm at the point in my life where I don't feel like I have to prove anything to anyone. My Rule No. 1 (besides we don't talk about Fight Club) is don't get hurt. And just continual progressive improvemtn. I aim to continue doing S&S and reach Simple at least, but I've stopped caring about how long that takes. Now I'm just enjoying the ride regardless of total trip time.
 
The only pain I've ever experienced in that area was subacromial bursitis caused by impingement and due to shoulder dyskinesis.
I'd recommend seeing a sports physiotherapist.
 
Thanks everyone for the advice. I am no stranger to sport therapists. It appears (according to my training history) that I get overuse injuries often, and that I like high intensity. Both absolute and relative.

For the joints - yeah, it is either bursitis, or tendinitis. In both cases rest and movement change is the answer.
Knowing what it actually is will not change my strategy much.

The question is - how to approach this on s&s? The program calls for 2 moves - getup and swing.
With a barbell we would do: ok, your elbows hurt? Don't squat low bar, squat high bar and reduce the frequency.
But what to do with Simple and Sinister program on an injury?
Abort the program and train what does not hurt, and then re-engage?
 
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Getting a form check is a great idea, before I started S+S properly I found a proper SFG instructor and spent an hour working through my swings and TGU's, invaluable time investment. So the next thing, as Steve says, would be getting a thorough physical screening with a suitable physio. I'm 48 and 80kg, I'm starting to progress well with the 32kg for both swing and get-up, but I've taken it steady. I'm 13 weeks into the programme, started with a 16kg for both moves, and found myself quickly moving up to 24kg, which I am now comfortable with; going from 16kg to 24kg didn't feel too hard, but 24kg to 32kg felt very different, that step up in weight made everything 'squeak' so to speak, so I pay closer attention to my warm ups, when I finish a session I always take a full minute to deadhang on my pull up station, to stretch out my back and shoulders. I will be visiting my local SFG instructor again for another form check, I think regular form checks, especially if you train alone, are important. In terms of dropping the load, I haven't had to do this yet, probably because I'm going steady, but it's probably a good idea until you get the all clear from a health professional and/or are feeling more comfortable yourself; as Cyrus-II says, you don't have anything to prove to anyone, and getting hurt will only stall your progress.
 
Amazing. Thanks for the answers everyone.

I see my SFG every month.

I started s&s after 3 years of barbell training. I finished on 68kg, 120 squat, 140 deadlift, 65 press, 85 bench and 70 powerclean. 17 chinups, and all the overuse injuries.
I can still do one arm pushup, pistol squat and toes to bar.

When I switched to kettle bells I hoped for more recovery, flexibility and less injuries. Better carryover to dancing.

I am 41. I train 5 days a week, and dance 2 days a week. That includes going to bed around 2am sometimes.
I can do any squat a#@ to grass.
Before starting on s&s I could goblet squat 32 for 20 reps.
 
Getting a form check is a great idea, before I started S+S properly I found a proper SFG instructor and spent an hour working through my swings and TGU's, invaluable time investment. So the next thing, as Steve says, would be getting a thorough physical screening with a suitable physio. I'm 48 and 80kg, I'm starting to progress well with the 32kg for both swing and get-up, but I've taken it steady. I'm 13 weeks into the programme, started with a 16kg for both moves, and found myself quickly moving up to 24kg, which I am now comfortable with; going from 16kg to 24kg didn't feel too hard, but 24kg to 32kg felt very different, that step up in weight made everything 'squeak' so to speak, so I pay closer attention to my warm ups, when I finish a session I always take a full minute to deadhang on my pull up station, to stretch out my back and shoulders. I will be visiting my local SFG instructor again for another form check, I think regular form checks, especially if you train alone, are important. In terms of dropping the load, I haven't had to do this yet, probably because I'm going steady, but it's probably a good idea until you get the all clear from a health professional and/or are feeling more comfortable yourself; as Cyrus-II says, you don't have anything to prove to anyone, and getting hurt will only stall your progress.

Same, almost exactly the same experience in doing S&S. Although I'm two years younger and I suspect shorter (5'6")..but the same weight. :)

While I have a background in weight training from years gone by, it's been haphazard since I joined the workforce 25+ years ago. I've had to get real with myself. I'm not training to be an athlete. I'm just training for the rest of my life.

Now having spent a solid four months doing S&S I have come to conclude those who can accelerate in their weight progression quickly fall into a few camps;

1. They have been training for years (if not decades) already. So the guy who was lifting in the squat rack for the past 10 years, 3-4 times a week probably will progress to the 32KG faster. I've learned I needed to cool my jets. I don't care if it takes me another six months or three years to progress fully to the 32KG and completely "own it". As long as I'm not getting hurt.

2. Someone who is younger can take more risks and even if they tweak something here or there, are likely to shrug it off. Not me. Not any more.

3. Some people are just a freak of nature and can progress faster than the average person (or they are juiced). More power to them.


If I hit fifty and can continue to press a 32KG one-arm (which I can already) and do one-hand swings and getups, I'm still going to be ahead of 95% of the rest of the people out there. Heck even if I just maintain doing all that with a 24KG I'm still probably ahead of 95%. The only other long term goal I have is be able to lift and squat a 200lb sandbag, in the extremely rare event I need to toss someone on my shoulder to carry them out of a fire. You're not going to see me trying to back squat 300+ lbs any more. The juice ain't worth the squeeze.

I am not an athlete. I am not going to X-fit games or any other nonsense. I just want to be "strong enough" and resilient. And right now my five year plan is to do all that with a 40KG and slowly progress in a reasonable front squat weight . It's a goal, but it's also not the end of the world either if I don't.
 
Here is a very interesting article on Program minimum.

Yeah, I have had similar thoughts. It is obvious enough that deadlift-swing-snatch is the same family. Partial movements are also pretty clear. The only thing - I was thinking presses instead of windmills and bend presses.
The thing is that it kind of breaks the 'simple' part of s&s :)
 
What's your age?

I've been doing S&S now for going on about 18 weeks. I'm in my mid 40's and I've had to listen to my body as I go. Specifically on number of training days in a given week. Some weeks it's been one or two, some it's been five. Even if it's five some weeks I start with a set of goblet squats and I'm like "that's feeling tight and not right". Those days I start my swings gingerly and am feeling for flaws in my technique, or impingements in various places (old injuries).

Some days I'm just not feeling it, and drop down a weight for swings and/or getups and focus on technique, or doing a more difficult version with a lighter weight. Other days I can go heavier than I probably should. And then yet occasionally on really bad days I'm like; "screw it" and instead skip a day to recover and work on stretching, or mobility movements, hanging from a pullup bar, or just go for a 1-2 mile walk in the neighborhood.

I'm finding diet and sleep also matter way more than I realized.

I'm at the point in my life where I don't feel like I have to prove anything to anyone. My Rule No. 1 (besides we don't talk about Fight Club) is don't get hurt. And just continual progressive improvemtn. I aim to continue doing S&S and reach Simple at least, but I've stopped caring about how long that takes. Now I'm just enjoying the ride regardless of total trip time.
I'm closing in on 50 years old & everything you just said goes exactly for me as well. I used to go to the gym for 4-hour sessions and do a different move for every little muscle. Now I see if I can do 4 or 5 Kettlebell workouts per week and just see what I can do. The older I get the more moves I find I just can't do anymore. Dips for chest just got taken off my lift. My workouts are: S&S, Clean & Press, Snatch and Floor Press with Curls. All with just kettlebells. I figure that takes care of my whole body. But right now I have to take a break from Get Ups something in my knee keeps saying "don't".
 
Same, almost exactly the same experience in doing S&S. Although I'm two years younger and I suspect shorter (5'6")..but the same weight. :)

While I have a background in weight training from years gone by, it's been haphazard since I joined the workforce 25+ years ago. I've had to get real with myself. I'm not training to be an athlete. I'm just training for the rest of my life.

Now having spent a solid four months doing S&S I have come to conclude those who can accelerate in their weight progression quickly fall into a few camps;

1. They have been training for years (if not decades) already. So the guy who was lifting in the squat rack for the past 10 years, 3-4 times a week probably will progress to the 32KG faster. I've learned I needed to cool my jets. I don't care if it takes me another six months or three years to progress fully to the 32KG and completely "own it". As long as I'm not getting hurt.

2. Someone who is younger can take more risks and even if they tweak something here or there, are likely to shrug it off. Not me. Not any more.

3. Some people are just a freak of nature and can progress faster than the average person (or they are juiced). More power to them.


If I hit fifty and can continue to press a 32KG one-arm (which I can already) and do one-hand swings and getups, I'm still going to be ahead of 95% of the rest of the people out there. Heck even if I just maintain doing all that with a 24KG I'm still probably ahead of 95%. The only other long term goal I have is be able to lift and squat a 200lb sandbag, in the extremely rare event I need to toss someone on my shoulder to carry them out of a fire. You're not going to see me trying to back squat 300+ lbs any more. The juice ain't worth the squeeze.

I am not an athlete. I am not going to X-fit games or any other nonsense. I just want to be "strong enough" and resilient. And right now my five year plan is to do all that with a 40KG and slowly progress in a reasonable front squat weight . It's a goal, but it's also not the end of the world either if I don't.
I’m totally with you there, if I can hit 50 and still get satisfaction from working with my 24kg and 32kg bells I’ll feel pretty good about myself,
 
Couple of observations—

1) If you are having overuse injuries then you are doing "too much" or loading the areas too much too soon.

2) The difference between your get-up weight and swing weight indicates a strength imbalance IMO.

3) Your get-up (based on facial expressions) looks painful—you grimace and look like moving through some of the positions is painful.
Is that the case?

4) Your swings are "harsh." Knees snap shut, head is jerked into extension at the bottom and juts forward at the top, there is a difference in the free hand action between left and right hand swings.
Out of a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being max effort, where would you put your swings on that effort scale?
 
Couple of observations—

1) If you are having overuse injuries then you are doing "too much" or loading the areas too much too soon.

2) The difference between your get-up weight and swing weight indicates a strength imbalance IMO.

3) Your get-up (based on facial expressions) looks painful—you grimace and look like moving through some of the positions is painful.
Is that the case?

4) Your swings are "harsh." Knees snap shut, head is jerked into extension at the bottom and juts forward at the top, there is a difference in the free hand action between left and right hand swings.
Out of a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being max effort, where would you put your swings on that effort scale?
Brett, I am honored to read your assessment.

1) The book said daily.

2) My get ups were 24kg for 10 singles before I have rolled back the weight due to overuse. I could goblet squat 32 for 20 rock bottom when I have started with kettlebells 2-3 months ago.

3) None of the places hurts specifically bad. A bit of elbow, a bit of AC joints both sides. More like discomfort.

I have left shoulder issues. X-ray and echo did not show any damage. My stability was bad, and it is 1.5 times more flexible than my right one. After 2 months of get-ups, a year of my misery is almost gone. It was magic. I can hang on my left arm again (I could not prevent rotation without pain) and I have managed a one arm pushup on my left side again.
But at the moment my AC and elbows trouble me more. It is mostly trying not to lose the bell.

4) I have trouble understanding "harsh". My one hand swings are 7-8. I did 10x10 with 24. Those are 5's. 2 hands - I did 32 for 10.
2 hand swings, sets of 5's are 5-6.

It could be that I am saving my right AC on the right hand swing, and my elbows on both.
 
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