Jeffro
Level 6 Valued Member
Hello folks, I recently recommitted to the bells and figured active participation here would help keep me engaged more than just lurking. So here I am. Forum, meet me. Me, forum (just kidding I already know ya'll).
So some background on me. Several months ago I found myself at 37 years old, 175 pounds 5'9", low 20s% body fat, lazy and skinny fat. Basically life had just gotten in the way and bad habits built up. Before that I'd played with a kettlebell for years, but never really focused on anything, and up until now only used a 16kg. I did ETK PM, played at ROP, often the AOS versions of both, but never really focused on sensible long term programming. I love KB juggling. So for a number of years I would just randomly cycle through the AOS version of PM, ROP, and freestyle juggling, convincing myself it was enough, I had no need to be any stronger than the 16kg. I've seen the light and realize that I do indeed need to get stronger, and now have a 24kg bell I'm making friends with.
I cleaned up the diet, ran a modest calorie deficit, and hacked together a bastardized program of S&S and ROP. While I've been working it I've seen the light of a long term plan, mostly based on Dan John's "things are going so well..." post. So long term will be Simple, ROP to 1/2 bodyweight press, then either sinister or doubles. But I can't get back on the party platform until I finish what I've started. I promise, I'll get back inline, but not until I feel like I truly own my 16kg bell again (pretty much there), and can do 5x24kg presses. I'm almost there, then it'll be S&S at 24kg with pullups and dips because they're fun and I like playing on my rings.
Although I fully recognize I'm just an idiot and nobody should do what I'm doing, it is working well for me. Based on what I know, it feels like the fastest I can get back into my baseline shape with maximum work and sufficient recovery in the short term. And it is at least a data point for anyone thinking of combining S&S with ROP. I'm not suggesting anyone else do this. I have seen some discussion of similar programs, so feel free to congratulate me, berate me, make fun of me, add whatever you feel like to this discussion.
I've been calling it ROSS, Rite of Simple & Sinister.
warmup everyday is S&S style 3x (5x16kg halo, 5x24kg goblet squat, 5x bridges)
Clean & Press & Pullup ladders are done superset style (1C&P Left and Right, 1 Pullup; 2C&P Left and Right, 2 Pullups etc)
Swings are 2 handed and done S&S style, heart rate limited (180-37=143). I do not add in the additional 5 because I'm newly back to training. Feels right on target. Requires a rest down to 115 most sets.
Nearing the end and it looks like this:
Mon - Light press day. 5x(1,2,3) C&P&Pullup, 1 rep rungs are all 24kg, rest are 16kg;
Wednesday - S&S day 10x10x24kg Swings, heart rate limited. 16kg 5x1 TGU per arm.
Thursday - Medium press day 5x(1,2,3,4) C&P&Pullup, 1 rep rungs are all 24kg, rest are 16kg;
Saturday - Heavy Press day 5x(1,2,3,4,5) C&P&Pullup, 1 rep rungs are all 24kg, rest are 16kg;
It's actually a pretty effective program for getting me back in shape, I'm seeing good body recomp progress, good heart rate reduction and the S&S swing protocol makes it much easier to recover than I imagine I'd have at this point with a true ROP. Resting Heart Rate is down from 75 to 62, weight down from 175 to 167, body fat down from low 20's to mid teens. 24kg press up from laughing about it to 3L, 4R.
These are LONG workouts, but I'm at home a lot these days and have the time. I don't rest much on the C&P&P ladders, 1:1 to 1:2 work:rest between rungs and 2-3 minutes between ladders, but even then I'm looking at 35 minutes to an hour including the warmup. The swings alone take up to another 45 minutes on heavy press days since I do them after the other work it takes the heart a long time to come back down. I do it all in one go when I can, but sometimes just don't have the block of time at once and will do the swings in a separate session later in the day.
Simply getting to 5x(1,2,3,4,5) 16kg got me a single 24kg press each side. Repeating it for 2 weeks did not get me more on my weak side (apologies), but it got me 2 strong side. Working in the 24 in the ladders is my approach, although I do see some people suggest higher volume ladders. I think I've got PLENTY of volume, it's more strength I need, so I'm working in the 24. With just the first rungs being heavy I think I will have enough to hit 5RM with the new bell.
Other thoughts on the combination, when progressing weight on the press, the TGU may be too much for the shoulders unless really underweighted. Sometimes while working up I felt like I just had to skip them, cut them down to just a couple, or use my daughter's 25 lb bell. This combo is no doubt a compromise on progressing S&S, but it's not bad variety programming for ROP presses. ROP swings vs. S&S swings, I think with a baseline of conditioning that I don't currently have, ROP swings offer better/faster/more endurance benefits while S&S swings are quickly building an aerobic base for me. ROP swings would take less time than the S&S style I'm doing now, for me currently. S&S swings seem to be aiding recovery on my S&S only days while requiring less recovery from Press days in the first place. I do the presses first, if I were to do it again I'd at least consider swings first, for compressing the workout time if nothing else. I don't think I'd program the pullups like this again though. It's working alright, and is probably occasionally a sweet spot, but it seems to need re-working, but that is probably a different conversation.
Is this scheme better than S&S? I have no idea, never done it. I read S&S for the first time while starting this. I do feel it's better for me than PM, which would have been my alternative when I started this just based on what I knew at the time. I've built up to a lot more work and seeing more results faster than I have in the past with PM.
In the next week or two I should have met my own standard of 5x24kg presses and will focus on S&S. When I eventually revisit ROP will I do a similar bastard version, or will I do strict ROP? Honestly I don't know. I think it will depend on my condition when I get there, and what I feel like I need from the swings in ROP. Maybe by then there will be an official rewrite of ROP anyway. Regardless I feel like I've learned a lot from this combination. Heart rate monitoring alone has been paradigm shifting. Nothing that is necessarily exclusive to what I'm doing, just that I've found it to be effective, motivating, and fun.
TL;DR I'm getting back in shape with a combination of heart rate based S&S and ROP. I like it, but will rejoin the official party programming soon.
So some background on me. Several months ago I found myself at 37 years old, 175 pounds 5'9", low 20s% body fat, lazy and skinny fat. Basically life had just gotten in the way and bad habits built up. Before that I'd played with a kettlebell for years, but never really focused on anything, and up until now only used a 16kg. I did ETK PM, played at ROP, often the AOS versions of both, but never really focused on sensible long term programming. I love KB juggling. So for a number of years I would just randomly cycle through the AOS version of PM, ROP, and freestyle juggling, convincing myself it was enough, I had no need to be any stronger than the 16kg. I've seen the light and realize that I do indeed need to get stronger, and now have a 24kg bell I'm making friends with.
I cleaned up the diet, ran a modest calorie deficit, and hacked together a bastardized program of S&S and ROP. While I've been working it I've seen the light of a long term plan, mostly based on Dan John's "things are going so well..." post. So long term will be Simple, ROP to 1/2 bodyweight press, then either sinister or doubles. But I can't get back on the party platform until I finish what I've started. I promise, I'll get back inline, but not until I feel like I truly own my 16kg bell again (pretty much there), and can do 5x24kg presses. I'm almost there, then it'll be S&S at 24kg with pullups and dips because they're fun and I like playing on my rings.
Although I fully recognize I'm just an idiot and nobody should do what I'm doing, it is working well for me. Based on what I know, it feels like the fastest I can get back into my baseline shape with maximum work and sufficient recovery in the short term. And it is at least a data point for anyone thinking of combining S&S with ROP. I'm not suggesting anyone else do this. I have seen some discussion of similar programs, so feel free to congratulate me, berate me, make fun of me, add whatever you feel like to this discussion.
I've been calling it ROSS, Rite of Simple & Sinister.
warmup everyday is S&S style 3x (5x16kg halo, 5x24kg goblet squat, 5x bridges)
Clean & Press & Pullup ladders are done superset style (1C&P Left and Right, 1 Pullup; 2C&P Left and Right, 2 Pullups etc)
Swings are 2 handed and done S&S style, heart rate limited (180-37=143). I do not add in the additional 5 because I'm newly back to training. Feels right on target. Requires a rest down to 115 most sets.
Nearing the end and it looks like this:
Mon - Light press day. 5x(1,2,3) C&P&Pullup, 1 rep rungs are all 24kg, rest are 16kg;
10x10x24kg swings or 10x10x16kg snatches, heart rate limited
Swings or snatches mostly just based on what I feel like doing and if I'm indoors or out. Snatches are harder to keep under my max HR. I just like snatches so I do them sometimes anyway.
Tuesday - S&S day 10x10x24kg Swings, heart rate limited. 16kg 5x1 TGU per arm.Swings or snatches mostly just based on what I feel like doing and if I'm indoors or out. Snatches are harder to keep under my max HR. I just like snatches so I do them sometimes anyway.
Wednesday - S&S day 10x10x24kg Swings, heart rate limited. 16kg 5x1 TGU per arm.
Thursday - Medium press day 5x(1,2,3,4) C&P&Pullup, 1 rep rungs are all 24kg, rest are 16kg;
10x10x24kg swings, heart rate limited.
Friday - OFFSaturday - Heavy Press day 5x(1,2,3,4,5) C&P&Pullup, 1 rep rungs are all 24kg, rest are 16kg;
10x10x24kg swings, heart rate limited.
Sunday OFFIt's actually a pretty effective program for getting me back in shape, I'm seeing good body recomp progress, good heart rate reduction and the S&S swing protocol makes it much easier to recover than I imagine I'd have at this point with a true ROP. Resting Heart Rate is down from 75 to 62, weight down from 175 to 167, body fat down from low 20's to mid teens. 24kg press up from laughing about it to 3L, 4R.
These are LONG workouts, but I'm at home a lot these days and have the time. I don't rest much on the C&P&P ladders, 1:1 to 1:2 work:rest between rungs and 2-3 minutes between ladders, but even then I'm looking at 35 minutes to an hour including the warmup. The swings alone take up to another 45 minutes on heavy press days since I do them after the other work it takes the heart a long time to come back down. I do it all in one go when I can, but sometimes just don't have the block of time at once and will do the swings in a separate session later in the day.
Simply getting to 5x(1,2,3,4,5) 16kg got me a single 24kg press each side. Repeating it for 2 weeks did not get me more on my weak side (apologies), but it got me 2 strong side. Working in the 24 in the ladders is my approach, although I do see some people suggest higher volume ladders. I think I've got PLENTY of volume, it's more strength I need, so I'm working in the 24. With just the first rungs being heavy I think I will have enough to hit 5RM with the new bell.
Other thoughts on the combination, when progressing weight on the press, the TGU may be too much for the shoulders unless really underweighted. Sometimes while working up I felt like I just had to skip them, cut them down to just a couple, or use my daughter's 25 lb bell. This combo is no doubt a compromise on progressing S&S, but it's not bad variety programming for ROP presses. ROP swings vs. S&S swings, I think with a baseline of conditioning that I don't currently have, ROP swings offer better/faster/more endurance benefits while S&S swings are quickly building an aerobic base for me. ROP swings would take less time than the S&S style I'm doing now, for me currently. S&S swings seem to be aiding recovery on my S&S only days while requiring less recovery from Press days in the first place. I do the presses first, if I were to do it again I'd at least consider swings first, for compressing the workout time if nothing else. I don't think I'd program the pullups like this again though. It's working alright, and is probably occasionally a sweet spot, but it seems to need re-working, but that is probably a different conversation.
Is this scheme better than S&S? I have no idea, never done it. I read S&S for the first time while starting this. I do feel it's better for me than PM, which would have been my alternative when I started this just based on what I knew at the time. I've built up to a lot more work and seeing more results faster than I have in the past with PM.
In the next week or two I should have met my own standard of 5x24kg presses and will focus on S&S. When I eventually revisit ROP will I do a similar bastard version, or will I do strict ROP? Honestly I don't know. I think it will depend on my condition when I get there, and what I feel like I need from the swings in ROP. Maybe by then there will be an official rewrite of ROP anyway. Regardless I feel like I've learned a lot from this combination. Heart rate monitoring alone has been paradigm shifting. Nothing that is necessarily exclusive to what I'm doing, just that I've found it to be effective, motivating, and fun.
TL;DR I'm getting back in shape with a combination of heart rate based S&S and ROP. I like it, but will rejoin the official party programming soon.
