Kettlebell Introduction to the Forum & DKB Clean & Press/Pull-up Questions

[Stephen1989]

Hi Everyone,

I want to start by saying thank you to management and all users for offering free and great advice to the public. In particular @Steve Freides for his solid and reliable input in almost every thread.
Been using Strongfirst Forum and printed materials exclusively as a source of information/advice for years and have also trained with a certified instructor foe a period of time.
I've been training with KB for a few years, sometimes frequently, sometimes casually. The main notable feat I have achieved in that time is a single 1H press with the 32kg (83kg BW) following the ROP press ladder progression. I can also comfortably and competently clean Double 28kg for reps so I suppose that's reasonable progress for someone who hasn't really taken training too seriously.
Anyway I will get to the point. I have decided to start taking training seriously and also allowing myself to ask for specific advice on this forum.
I have chosen to focus on the DKB Clean & Press and Pull-Ups using a variety of grips (Tactical/Reverse/Alternated etc.) because they will offer me a good foundation of total body strength/power/conditioning/skill for a novice such as myself.
My overall goal is to increase Strength/Power and maybe gain some armour/body weight in the process if possible.
So my questions to start with are:
-Are ladders suitable for the DKB C&P? If so, what volume/Ladder/Rungs would be appropriate for this exercise? I read somewhere the ROP 1H Press ladders are to high volume for doubles? Is it just a matter of doing something similar but reducing total volume? Note: By Clean & Press I mean Clean the bell before every press. E.G. Clean - Press 1 rep. Clean - Press Clean Press 2 rep Etc. Also if I am performing Ladders with Heavy/Light/Medium Days, what would make the Light/Medium days different to the Heavy Days? Would it be similar to ROP? E.G. Same amount of set, reduce -2 Rep each Rung for Light/-1 Rep each Rung for Medium?
-The main goal is the C&P, the Pull-Up is a secondary/bonus exercise but still somewhat important to me so I thought maybe taking a more freestyle/"Playing around with" approach to the Pull-Ups would allow me to gradually get stronger without impacting the C&P too much as opposed to forcing myself to complete prescribed volumes even when my body is telling me it needs rest. Or should I still perform ladders with the Pull-Ups but just do the amount of Rungs/Ladders that are appropriate for each session and not bother including Heavy/Light/Medium Days? If performing ladders for this exercise how would I go about structuring the volume for the different grips? Should I pick the most important one (Tactical Pull-Up), do ladders for that, then just "Play" with the others?

I think thats enough for this post, I'm sure I will have the need to post more questions some time in the future. Thanks for taking the time to read the post and thank you in advance for any feedback/Advice.

-SA

 

[John Grahill]

@Stephen1989 ... For what it's worth, I have actually increased my pull ups and "pull up ability" every time I have focused on the double kbell clean and press without doing them. In my case doing the clean and press the "SF" way has had a major carry over in pull up strength.

 

[Stephen1989]

@Stephen1989 ... For what it's worth, I have actually increased my pull ups and "pull up ability" every time I have focused on the double kbell clean and press without doing them. In my case doing the clean and press the "SF" way has had a major carry over in pull up strength.

Thanks for your reply @John Grahill
I have read that discovery elsewhere in the past. I am aware there is some crossover with the two exercises. That is the reason why I decided to make Pull-Ups the second focus, more of a supplement, and take a more "Freestyle" approach to them as I feel the structured C&P work will give me most of what I am looking for anyway. I suppose I was just looking for peoples thoughts on structuring the Sets/Reps and using a variety of grips out of interest and to give me some idea on how to execute "freestyle" training, however, it's good to know my Pull-Ups will become stronger regardless so thanks again for the reply.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Stephen1989, thank you for your kind words.

-Are ladders suitable for the DKB C&P? If so, what volume/Ladder/Rungs would be appropriate for this exercise? I read somewhere the ROP 1H Press ladders are to high volume for doubles?

Ladders are suitable for double kettlebell presses, but the load on the lower back is greater, so a general recommendation would be to lower the volume and not attempt the ROP's 5 ladders to 5. You might try 5 ladders of 1-2-3 instead, and I've also seen 1-2-3 ladders recommend for other things, e.g., the barbell deadlift.

-S-

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Stephen1989
Armor Building Complex can be interesting in this regard. You may skip the squat portion if you do not want to add lower body training:

The Armor Building Kettlebell Complex and 4 Other Beastly Strength Builders - Breaking Muscle

A fellow in great distress came to me through email and inquired as to which of my kettlebell complexes are best for the accruement of strength. I could do no less than to give him my best advice, of course, but if less could have been done, well I know myself well enough to say for certain I...

breakingmuscle.com

Practicing multiple rounds of ABC may be an option for you. Nonetheless, squats also build core so they may be of interest.

The clean is already a "pull" move, so I would do 1 pull up (weighted or not, as you strength allows) then ABC. Then I would repeat the whole process.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Stephen1989]

@Stephen1989, thank you for your kind words.


Ladders are suitable for double kettlebell presses, but the load on the lower back is greater, so a general recommendation would be to lower the volume and not attempt the ROP's 5 ladders to 5. You might try 5 ladders of 1-2-3 instead, and I've also seen 1-2-3 ladders recommend for other things, e.g., the barbell deadlift.

-S-

I thought it may be something along the lines of reducing volume and it seems I was right. 5 x 1-2-3 seems like a suitable goal to me. Thanks @Steve Freides

 

[Stephen1989]

Hello,

@Stephen1989
Armor Building Complex can be interesting in this regard. You may skip the squat portion if you do not want to add lower body training:

The Armor Building Kettlebell Complex and 4 Other Beastly Strength Builders - Breaking Muscle

A fellow in great distress came to me through email and inquired as to which of my kettlebell complexes are best for the accruement of strength. I could do no less than to give him my best advice, of course, but if less could have been done, well I know myself well enough to say for certain I...

breakingmuscle.com

Practicing multiple rounds of ABC may be an option for you. Nonetheless, squats also build core so they may be of interest.

The clean is already a "pull" move, so I would do 1 pull up (weighted or not, as you strength allows) then ABC. Then I would repeat the whole process.

Kind regards,

Pet'

Hi Pet'
Thank you for taking the time to reply and also you're previous posts/replies on other threads. I have regularly read your comments/advice and have learned some valuable information from you. I actually think I got the ROP Press Ladder/Rung format from one of your posts on another thread.

I have actually completed an Armour Building Complex progression in the past. I did 2-1-3 Clean-Press-Squat. Double KB 20kgs. EMOM 20 Mins.
I enjoyed the time I spent on it actually.
Does the DKB Clean work the lower body to some degree at least? I know it requires the whole body but I thought the Glutes/Hips/Hamstrings especially were loaded quite heavily in the hinge part of the movement. I ask because I definitely do not want to neglect lower body work so if the cleans aren't particularly effective for lower body strength/power and its worth doing something extra then I will definitely add squats into the equation in some form.

Also the pull-up plan sounds sensible. Adding a rep at the end of each rung will build the pattern without fatigue.

Thanks again for the advice.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Stephen1989
My pleasure

Yes the clean will work the lower body to a certain extent. It will build explosive power (like a swing for instance).

Nonetheless clean is a hip move, such as the DL. The squat is not hip dominant move. Plus, this is a grind.

Without a squat, assuming you go for ABC + Pull up, you will not have a grind (pure strength) for the lower body.

To a certain extent having a lower body grind will make the whole combo more 'well rounded'.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Bunn]

@Stephen1989 You should look at Dry Fighting Weight or the Total Tension Training Complex.

“Dry Fighting Weight”: Fat Loss Through Strength | StrongFirst

Let's look to both science and weightlifters to see to do for fat loss. May you reach your target weight without the dishonor of dieting and aerobics!

www.strongfirst.com

Total Tension Kettlebell Complex | StrongFirst

Do the Total Tension Kettlebell Complex for 6 weeks and there be more meat on your bones and you will possess an understanding of linkage and tension.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Pete S]

@Stephen1989 If you intend to do DKB C&P, I would suggest considering Geoff Neupert's Kettlebell Strong Program which is based on using DKB C&P. It has three phases to increase strength, hypertrophy, and conditioning. There is a current discussion of this program at Strong! Program Again. Of all the programs I have used over the years, this is probably my favorite and I went through it twice at ages 74 and 75.. The programming is superb. Geoff has recently written an article on how to use it with AGT (see brutally-strong-with-double-kettlebells in Articles).

 

[Stephen1989]

Hello,

@Stephen1989
My pleasure

Yes the clean will work the lower body to a certain extent. It will build explosive power (like a swing for instance).

Nonetheless clean is a hip move, such as the DL. The squat is not hip dominant move. Plus, this is a grind.

Without a squat, assuming you go for ABC + Pull up, you will not have a grind (pure strength) for the lower body.

To a certain extent having a lower body grind will make the whole combo more 'well rounded'.

Kind regards,

Pet'

@pet' Yeah, that way you put it makes sense. I think I should add the squat then. I think I will give the Armour Building Complex another run and see if I can move up to a more significant weight before I move on. I may post my progress on this thread down the track.
Thanks for your wisdom.

 

[Stephen1989]

@Stephen1989 You should look at Dry Fighting Weight or the Total Tension Training Complex.

“Dry Fighting Weight”: Fat Loss Through Strength | StrongFirst

Let's look to both science and weightlifters to see to do for fat loss. May you reach your target weight without the dishonor of dieting and aerobics!

www.strongfirst.com

Total Tension Kettlebell Complex | StrongFirst

Do the Total Tension Kettlebell Complex for 6 weeks and there be more meat on your bones and you will possess an understanding of linkage and tension.

www.strongfirst.com

@Bunn I am going to run the Armour Building Complex for a while and see how it works for me. Then in the future I may look into the other plans. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Stephen1989]

@Stephen1989 If you intend to do DKB C&P, I would suggest considering Geoff Neupert's Kettlebell Strong Program which is based on using DKB C&P. It has three phases to increase strength, hypertrophy, and conditioning. There is a current discussion of this program at Strong! Program Again. Of all the programs I have used over the years, this is probably my favorite and I went through it twice at ages 74 and 75.. The programming is superb. Geoff has recently written an article on how to use it with AGT (see brutally-strong-with-double-kettlebells in Articles).

@Pete S I have seen that program mentioned several times throughout the years but I have never read up on it. I will give it a look now. Thanks for your help