Kettlebell Is a big upper body pull a deficiency in S&S?

[watchnerd]

As for various rows, Pavel was never a fan and for good reason: most of them either create lots of unproductive back stress or require additional equipment.

Eh?

You can do a 1 arm KB row without additional equipment.

And if you're doing a knee supported row, it's pretty easy on the back.

 

[Jeff]

Traps would be the other big guns of the back in terms of looking the part.

Personally, I'm into spinal erectors.

Nobody gets excited about the poor rhomboids.

You get spinal erectors is spades from swings and getups!

 

[watchnerd]

You get spinal erectors is spades from swings and getups!

I think we have a different standard for 'in spades'.

Deadlifts and other barbell hinges/pulls are the real deal for spinal erectors.

 

[TimothyGander]

And if you're doing a knee supported row, it's pretty easy on the back.

I think it would still fatigue it, taking something away from swings and getups (or any other pull+press combination). That's at least my experience and that's what Pavel claimed e.g. in his "best upper body pull" article. May be wrong, though.

 

[watchnerd]

I think it would still fatigue it, taking something away from swings and getups (or any other pull+press combination). That's at least my experience and that's what Pavel claimed e.g. in his "best upper body pull" article. May be wrong, though.

Do them as a finisher.

 

[John K]

Pavel claimed e.g. in his "best upper body pull" article

Could you link that article? I don't think I've read it.

 

[WxHerk]

Nobody gets excited about the poor rhomboids.

Except Dan John. But for overall health and performance, not aesthetics.

 

[Jeff]

Could you link that article? I don't think I've read it.

The Best Upper Body Pull | StrongFirst

This one is going to be simple. There is only one contender for best upper body pull — a hollow position pull-up, strict and heavy.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[watchnerd]

Except Dan John. But for overall health and performance, not aesthetics.

I love my rhomboids!

But my 'hard' cardio these days is rowing.

 

[wespom9]

heavy bells will definitely help pulls. Is it "true" pull? Probably not. Does it make S&S "deficient"? Probably not. You can argue any program has holes. That's why you don't stay on a program forever.

 

[watchnerd]

heavy bells will definitely help pulls. Is it "true" pull? Probably not. Does it make S&S "deficient"? Probably not. You can argue any program has holes. That's why you don't stay on a program forever.

Exactly -- there comes a time to move on from any program to something new to drive more progress.

 

[Tim Bruce]

Didn't read every post in detail. I just skimmed. My response to anyone who claims there's a big pull deficit in S&S may not be one-arm swinging a big enough bell with good mechanical form. Done properly (engaging lats, packing shoulders, keeping both shoulders square), they will work your lats.

As far as bicep envy, take the overlooked, goblet squat. If done slow, with a big bell, they will probably work your upper body more than the lower. The isometric hold (on the horns) of a big bell will work your biceps. If you're stuck with a smaller bell, then do the curls at the bottom.

S&S is GPP, and it's a great program to build a base of strength. Sure, there are better programs/exercised to hit the upper body pull, but to say S&S doesn't cover it is false.

 

[watchnerd]

Sure, there are better programs/exercised to hit the upper body pull, but to say S&S doesn't cover it is false.

Not false.

Nothing in S&S covers scapular retraction / pinching your shoulder blades together.

How much that matters to you may vary, put lets not pretend it's there when it isn't.

 

[Jeff]

I think we have a different standard for 'in spades'.

Deadlifts and other barbell hinges/pulls are the real deal for spinal erectors.

That’s spinal erectors in backhoes, not spades.

 

[sizzlefuzz]

I preferred adding pull ups to the end of an S&S session for this reason. However, I have always loved pull ups/chin ups in general (because I was relatively good at them in gym class growing up) so, like you do– I favor things I have been good at in the past.

 

[Steve Freides]

Nothing in S&S covers scapular retraction / pinching your shoulder blades together.

Pretty weird to do with a 1h swing - with a bar, you pull the bar apart to help bring your shoulder blades together (or at least for me, those two things go together). Possible to do some of this however, with a 2h swing.

-S-

 

[Nate]

Not false.

Nothing in S&S covers scapular retraction / pinching your shoulder blades together.

How much that matters to you may vary, put lets not pretend it's there when it isn't.

I'm not the expert on this forum but I believe a proper swing should have both scapular retraction and external rotation. When both the swing & TGU focus on shoulders away from ears, there's a lot of mid back getting stimulus. Different than a row or pullup, but stimulus.

 

[watchnerd]

I'm not the expert on this forum but I believe a proper swing should have both scapular retraction and external rotation. When both the swing & TGU focus on shoulders away from ears, there's a lot of mid back getting stimulus. Different than a row or pullup, but stimulus.

It's definitely not zero stimulus.

But I don't think it's a replacement for a true row / pull, either.

 

[Tim Bruce]

Not false.

Nothing in S&S covers scapular retraction / pinching your shoulder blades together.

How much that matters to you may vary, put lets not pretend it's there when it isn't.

OK, I would think you would retract your working side scapula in the initial floor press on the get up, I know I do. I know it's not done within the context of a true pull, but it's there if you really want to be technical.

Again S&S is a minimalist GPP program that hits a lot of things with very few exercises. If you want to get your scapular retraction work in you can add some rows or something. But, then you realize that you're not getting enough of a pushing, so then you add some presses, and then you realize that the goblet squats and get-ups aren't working your quads enough so you need to add some barbell back squats. Not so minimalist anymore.

I'm not trying to make S&S something it is not. The point I'm trying to make is that S&S is a great minimalist GPP program to build a well rounded base of strength & fitness. Minimal applies to number of exercises, equipment, and time invested. It's not going to hit everything to everyone's satisfaction, but if you can get to where you can do S&S with a heavy bell, I don't think you'll have any glaring deficits in strength for most people's lives. Work the program until you hit your goal or it quits working and move on to something else. JMO

 

[Adachi]

i don't know about you guys, but my guiding principle, for what I need to add or take away, is found in strength shortcuts, by @Geoff Neupert .



if i can move how i want. then I'm good. if i can't move the way I want, then i need to change something.
add a stretch ?
change up the training?
there's some introspection, and experimentation to do.

and i just gague whether i'm happy with my ability to move.
and one thing i want to do is be able to carry my kids for longer.
so there's some pullup / chin up to do to strengthen my biceps and forearms.
and - in my case - that means i am in the market for a pull up bar.

not to mention doing some carries and holds. and maybe some kettlebell/kids walks .