Is a mass building phase necessary to keep building strength?

MikeTheBear

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I mean seriously I know a dude that freaks out if he gains 5lbs and goes immediately on a sticked Keto diet.
I understand why you think this would be an overreaction and I don't necessarily disagree. But I once read an article stating that this is how people get on the road to obesity. You know how everyone gains 5-10 lbs. over the holidays? It happens to many of us and it's considered "normal." What are the holidays without good food and drinking some "holiday cheer" as my brother-in-law likes to call it. For the lucky ones, going back to normal eating habits will reduce the weight. For others, it stays there. But it's "only" 5 lbs., right? But then next year on comes another 5 lbs. It's 10 years later and you're asking yourself, "How did I gain 50 lbs.?"
 

Maine-ah KB

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@MikeTheBear your totally right. and my friend in question had gone a serious weight loss journey previously (100+lbs) so I can see his reaction about weight gain.

part of my point was that he's a he and that there are plenty of men who are concerned about there physique and there not being "womanly." hell I care about how fat I get (most of the time anywho) I guess that makes me lady like. what a person weights or if they do/don't care about there weight isn't a gender thing, its an individual goal thing. sorry, I annoys me when people use femininity as an insult. I know way too many strong ladies for it to sit well with me.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

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In the Starting Strength system, severely underweight young males who both want and need to be bigger - AND ONLY INDIVIDUALS WHO FIT THAT DESCRIPTION - are encouraged to work up to drinking a gallon of whole milk a day to support their training, recovery and growth, since it's easy, available, and has exactly the macro composition needed to make small animals into bigger animals.
The Drinking A Gallon of Milk A Day

I was brain washed and indoctrinated into "Parroting" this dogma for years. However, examine the current research, the "Gallon Of Milk A Day" is antiquated.

Gaining Weight

Without a doubt you will gain weight by consuming a gallon of milk a day.

That because a gallon of whole milk contains 2432 kcals.

You will gain weight if you increase your Daily Caloric Intake by 2432 kcals NO matter what food you consume.

However, a large portion of that weight gain is going to be fat. A more effective method of gaining weight is to follow...

The 20% Rule

Drs John Ivy and Layne Norton independently determined that muscle mass was maximally increased while minimizing body fat gain by increasing caloric intake around 20%.

The American College of Sports Medicine recommendation for decades for gaining weight is to increase your caloric intake by 500 kcal per day. For most individuals, a 500 kcal increase is approximately a 20% increase.

It's NOT The Milk, It's The Calories

Milk is an excellent source of protein; it 80% Casein and 20% Whey.

However, increasing your Daily Caloric Intake by consuming a Gallon of Milk (2432 kcals) or even half the number of calories (1216 kcals) will magnify the amount of fat gained during the process.

Kenny Croxdale
 

Antti

More than 2500 posts
The Drinking A Gallon of Milk A Day

I was brain washed and indoctrinated into "Parroting" this dogma for years. However, examine the current research, the "Gallon Of Milk A Day" is antiquated.

Gaining Weight

Without a doubt you will gain weight by consuming a gallon of milk a day.

That because a gallon of whole milk contains 2432 kcals.

You will gain weight if you increase your Daily Caloric Intake by 2432 kcals NO matter what food you consume.

However, a large portion of that weight gain is going to be fat. A more effective method of gaining weight is to follow...

The 20% Rule

Drs John Ivy and Layne Norton independently determined that muscle mass was maximally increased while minimizing body fat gain by increasing caloric intake around 20%.

The American College of Sports Medicine recommendation for decades for gaining weight is to increase your caloric intake by 500 kcal per day. For most individuals, a 500 kcal increase is approximately a 20% increase.

It's NOT The Milk, It's The Calories

Milk is an excellent source of protein; it 80% Casein and 20% Whey.

However, increasing your Daily Caloric Intake by consuming a Gallon of Milk (2432 kcals) or even half the number of calories (1216 kcals) will magnify the amount of fat gained during the process.

Kenny Croxdale
I'm not sure of the 500 kcal increase a day.

First of all, it would require a good baseline to add the calories to. However, when it comes to novices and the aggressive linear progression, we do not really have a baseline how much their caloric expenditure increases as they start the program. Will 500 kcal a day cut it? One thing to keep in mind that some of the novices may actually be under eating as they are, before they even start the program.

A gallon of milk a day is likely excessive in most cases. But it is a simple rule and combined with following the training program properly, whether it is Starting Strength or McCallum/Strossen squats and milk, it certainly works.
 

Oscar

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To be fair about the GOMAD, he only suggests it for underweight beginners, and only during the very first phase of the LP, when the weights go up very fast. If the person reaches 20% BF, or when the lifts start increasing at a slower pace, he suggests dropping or reducing the GOMAD. So taking all into consideration, the GOMAD would only apply to an underweight person, and only for about 6 weeks.
 

305pelusa

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To be fair about the GOMAD, he only suggests it for underweight beginners, and only during the very first phase of the LP, when the weights go up very fast. If the person reaches 20% BF, or when the lifts start increasing at a slower pace, he suggests dropping or reducing the GOMAD. So taking all into consideration, the GOMAD would only apply to an underweight person, and only for about 6 weeks.
But he only says this in his clarification. His original recommendation was not GOMAD for just 6 weeks. It could've been up to a year. From SS:
"It is possible for genetically favored individuals, for example a broad- shouldered, motivated kid 5'10" weighing 140 lbs., to gain as much as 60 lbs. in a year of good
steady training, good diet, and milk"

Anybody with excellent genetics, natural, and with hard work, isn't gonna be putting a lot more than 20 lbs of pure muscle in a year, even when starting out (roughly I mean... There's always exceptions) So these people are putting on 40 lbs + of fat in a year. So they get crazy fat. Like you said, it happened so much, he had to write an article about it!

And then Rippetoe has the audacity to tell them that if they got fat with the program, then they didn't do the nutrition correctly and hence "didn't do the program".


The point of the milk was to ensure enough calories, without counting. Fair enough. Do it by consuming extra snacks like Dan John recommends in Mass Made Simple. Start with an extra PB and J daily. If that doesn't move the scale after a week, go up to 2, and maybe even 3. If you're keeping your normal food intake the same (just like you're supposed to in GOMAD), this will lead to similar muscle gains but without the ridiculous fat gain.

They're also infinitely better on the stomach. I still have nightmares from the GOMAD nights *shudders*
 

MikeTheBear

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They're also infinitely better on the stomach. I still have nightmares from the GOMAD nights *shudders*
This is a very important point. Gastric distress is more than just uncomfortable. It means that what you put in your gut isn't being digested properly. If it's not being digested properly then it's highly likely that it's not being absorbed properly, meaning you're not getting all of the nutrients. If the gastric distress also interrupts your sleep, then this will also affect your gains (or should I say gainzz, bro!). Even Rippetoe says that sleep is very anabolic and that a person on the SS program should get at least 8 hours. If you're up half the night on the crapper because your digestive system can't handle all the lactose and fat from the gallon of whole milk, that's a problem.

I feel your pain @305pelusa. I don't even drink milk anymore. I can handle some cheese and yogurt, but that's about it.
 

305pelusa

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This is a very important point. Gastric distress is more than just uncomfortable. It means that what you put in your gut isn't being digested properly. If it's not being digested properly then it's highly likely that it's not being absorbed properly, meaning you're not getting all of the nutrients. If the gastric distress also interrupts your sleep, then this will also affect your gains (or should I say gainzz, bro!). Even Rippetoe says that sleep is very anabolic and that a person on the SS program should get at least 8 hours. If you're up half the night on the crapper because your digestive system can't handle all the lactose and fat from the gallon of whole milk, that's a problem.

I feel your pain @305pelusa. I don't even drink milk anymore. I can handle some cheese and yogurt, but that's about it.
Bruh I'm not even lactose intolerant. But that much milk? I don't think people are meant to process so much.

If you ever want a good laugh, head over to Bodybuilders.com and look at GOMAD experience threads. We aren't alone.

Anywho, pretty off topic overall. But back to the question, I think diet is an important distinction between Greyskull and SS!
 

kennycro@@aol.com

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Will 500 kcal a day cut it? One thing to keep in mind that some of the novices may actually be under eating as they are, before they even start the program.
Three Day Recall

That is one of the reasons that I promoting preforming a Three Day Recall; counting every calorie for three days, then dividing it by three to obtain the Daily Average Caloric Intake.

Before you start a weight gain or weight loss diet you first need to know where you are

However, around 500 kcals is still a good place to start, especially if they are under eating. As with most things, it better to gradually ratchet it up slowly rather than doubling there caloric intake over night.

Squats and Milk

...definitely a good combination.

Kenny Croxdale
 

Marty Lynden

Double-Digit Post Count
Bruh I'm not even lactose intolerant. But that much milk? I don't think people are meant to process so much.

If you ever want a good laugh, head over to Bodybuilders.com and look at GOMAD experience threads. We aren't alone.

Anywho, pretty off topic overall. But back to the question, I think diet is an important distinction between Greyskull and SS!
Also one might add that there seems to be a connection between a high intake of milk and prostate cancer, which should at least be considered. To the best of my knowledge no definite answer has been provided as to if this is actually the case, but it is a topic which have attracted some attention from the scientific community over the last couple of years.
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
A little off topic, but one of my older brothers used to down a gallon a day for years, maybe decades. He still drinks a half gallon a day last I knew.

I remember when I was 6 or 7 and he in his late teens, he one arm military pressed 100lbs on a barbell.
 

Oscar

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At this point there is no possible way you could be a little off topic. LOL!
Thats the bad thing about starting an interesting topic, it gets people thinking and it derails quite fast. Enjoy it!
 
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