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Kettlebell Is Anti Glycolytic Training profitable for 400m, 800m?

Eric Wilson

Level 5 Valued Member
I've been reading the things Pavel and others have written about AGT, and it seems to make sense. In particular, it seems that AGT is clearly a good way to get strong, and clearly a good way to gain endurance.

There are some athletes in my household, however, that will be competing in events that particulaly use the glycolytic system -- the 400m and 800m run.

Would you modify AGT in such a case? Or would you maintain AGT for strength training, and trust that the track-specific training would take care of any conditioning of the glycolytic system?
 

Tony Gracia

Level 6 Valued Member
Team Leader Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Hi Eric,
In one of your other posts I just saw it looks like you have a handful of teenagers in the house, so I assume you are asking this question with them in mind? As a teenager it is important to be exposed to many different training stimuli, both as far as movements and also energy systems. It is much better for long-term development to have a wide range of exposure than it is to specialize too early. That said, AGT type training would probably be excellent for any teenager (400-800m runner or otherwise) who has the body control to perform the assigned movements well.
 

CraigW

Level 5 Valued Member
@Eric Wilson I've edited this to make it much simpler.

Yes, AGT is profitable for 400m and 800m.

- Steady State Running will take care of Endurance.
- S&S style Swing's will take care of Stamina, once advanced they can alternate A+A and Q&D.
- A Press with either a Kettlebell or Barbell will take care of "core" Strength/Stability.
- Hill Sprints are a great addition for strengthen the legs of runners.
 
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miked

Level 6 Valued Member
Oh yes! I’ll pm you some links of a high school track champ who I know for sure trains AGT because I know her coach. I don’t want to share it too publicly because I don’t know how she’d feel about us talking about her.
 

Bauer

Level 7 Valued Member
@Eric Wilson
You should definitely listen to the SF podcast with Derek Toshner, where he discusses 400m training. @Derek Toshner

And after reading QnD you will get a lot out of the podcast with Peter Park (former S&C coach for Lance Armstrong).

The basic idea there is: AGT and aerobic base training and then 2-4 weeks of glycolitic peaking every couple of months (either before season or after plateauing).
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 6 Valued Member
just information I have collected from this site and other affiliates.

The Information

Some of the information, doen't make sense.

What is the reasoning and what are the resources for the following...

~ Reduce Strength Training to just Military Press.

Just Military Pressing

Why only this?

~ Glycolytic - Introduce Sprint repeats, at 90% effort have them run 2-5 sets of 1600, 800, 400, 200... (1 of these per week, that's 2 x 1,600 in week and 3 x 800 in week two and so one, rest 5-10 minutes in between each run).

1600 and 800

I don't quite see the point of these for a 400 meter sprinter.

I will tidy this post tomorrow and include some links with lots of fun reading material.

Links

Great. I'd like to see them.
 

Deleted member 5559

Guest
I also have 400 and 800 athletes in my house and was one in high school. I also still train for the 400. From my experience with AGT, I think it's great for running if doing it using sprints (hill sprints especially) or a bike of some kind.

For middle/high school middle distance runners, I think 5-10min tempo cruise intervals and 200m repeats are the bread and butter. They need to learn to pace using the 200s and learn how to dig with the tempo runs.

Clyde Hart was a proponent of over distance training using 5-600m so athletes could learn to dig longer but I think that's only useful for high level that is already able to dig for the whole race.

Bill Bowerman was a proponent of fartkeks to learn how to dig but the main focus was pacing using quarter distance repeats. These kind of look like GTG or AGT repeats. The key is to build volume and only increase intensity when a new PR is set.

Alberto Salazar is a big proponent of strength training and other coaches believe in ballistic strength training for sprinters too. That said, anything that doesn't increase relative strength/power is not helpful. A+A jump squats is about the only strength training that I believe has ever really helped my 400 time.
 

CraigW

Level 5 Valued Member
@kennycro@@aol.com

I do not have time for an in-depth discussion unfortunately, and the links I mentioned were on the topic of AGT.

This is just a quick response.

- The Military Press is all you need for the upper body, if it is done correctly with either a Barbell, Kettlebell or Log.
I believe Barry Ross was a fan of the Bench Press for runners. Dan John prefer's the Military Press.
Removing the other lifts is just for recovery, the Q&D Swing's and Hill Sprints will take care of the lower body strength requirements.

- 1600 and 800
This was covered very well by @Bro Mo and he is certainly more knowledgeable than I am on the subject, so just to add to what he said, when I was in school I believe they were used to practice different stride lengths, different paces, preparing the athlete for faster running and as 3-4 or 6-8 minute tempo runs/repeats, they can also be used as a test; if the athletes 1600m or 800m time has decreased but the heart rate is the same; we can work more on speed and strength via short repeats and hills, and less on tempo runs.
 

ali

Level 6 Valued Member
@Eric Wilson ....do you mean using agt strength work with 400/800 training? Or doing 400/800 agt specifically?

The former, yes, absolutely, eyes on recovery and when in/off season etc. The latter....the only agt 400 is not doing a 400!

Whether you can/should is dependent on many things, that we know. The athlete, training history, competitive level or aspirations, age etc etc.

What do you mean, precisely, by agt? Training to avoid glycolysis or training to mitigate the effects of glycolysis?

Long rests.
 

randyh

Level 3 Valued Member
I've been reading the things Pavel and others have written about AGT, and it seems to make sense. In particular, it seems that AGT is clearly a good way to get strong, and clearly a good way to gain endurance.

There are some athletes in my household, however, that will be competing in events that particulaly use the glycolytic system -- the 400m and 800m run.

Would you modify AGT in such a case? Or would you maintain AGT for strength training, and trust that the track-specific training would take care of any conditioning of the glycolytic system?

I have had good success w/ AGT and mid distance high school athletes. I have had two Colorado 5A state champions and two Simplot games champions in both 800 meters and the mile. (I've also had good success with post collegiate pros in mtn running and road racing as well as masters track athletes in various events. Most of what I describe here applies to their programs too.)

In event training itself, too much glycolysis too often is a problem. But the athlete needs to be prepared mentally and physically for the discomforts, and my goal with AGT is to help get them metabolically fit enough to push back that threshold so they can go faster at the same or, ideally, less levels of discomfort.

I try to plan AGT to sync up with the competition calendar and periodize accordingly. We do our AGT after weights (power cleans, squats, push presses, etc) which has become more and more to function as the general warmup for AGT. In the preseason, usually 4 weeks or so, I have my athletes do "slow"AGT (band assisted pullups + goblet squats, although slow pushups are good too) gradually adding to the number of rounds. This is analogous to building base mileage. My take on AGT for runners is that they have plenty of MT "batteries" and transport proteins in the legs and hips, but by adding "batteries" and transport proteins to the upper body, we are building a more capacious lactate sink.

As we get into the early meets we phase into more fast twitch AGT, usually one day of two hand swings for "fast tens" with generous active rest and then a second day of unilateral work: snatches or one hand swings. As we get closer to State we will go shorter breaks, increasing that lactate burn a bit more. (Peaking.) When my 5A athlete doubled Gold in the 800 and mile at State last year, her last AGT workout three days out from the meet was just 3 minutes long: 2 hand swings, 10 seconds on 5 seconds off. (120 seconds of actual work: about the same as her personal best 800: 2:03)

As far as 400 meter training goes, this same athlete would run 200s and 400s at earlier meets for speed training and she was right around 55-56 for those efforts. So, I don't know as if I would change much for 400 specialists.

Of course, you need to assess the needs of your particular athletes, but working slow to fast, longer rests to shorter and deciding which meets you will train through and which you will peak for are all key. I am not a running coach, so I have to interface with both athlete and coach to implement and adjust as we go.

A couple of things to keep in mind and watch out for, from an article by Aussie swim coach Bob Treffene on LTAD: Muscular adaptations occur daily, but MT mitosis can explode up to 10% seemingly "overnight". Because it can take up to 10 days before these MT are fully integrated, they are a drain on the athlete's system, resulting in higher than expected heart rates during training, extra fatigue and so on. The recommendation is to back off the intensity of the training from onset of issues for the next 10 days. So don't freak out if after a month of training the athlete experiences a little downturn, just adjust until it passes.

Also: Be aware there is a glycogen and transport protein replenishment lag time after hard training. Type 1 Fibers 36 hours., Type IIA 12 hours and 3 days for IIB. So plan recovery time between loadings appropriately.

Hope this was helpful.

-Randy
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
I have had good success w/ AGT and mid distance high school athletes. I have had two Colorado 5A state champions and two Simplot games champions in both 800 meters and the mile. (I've also had good success with post collegiate pros in mtn running and road racing as well as masters track athletes in various events. Most of what I describe here applies to their programs too.)

In event training itself, too much glycolysis too often is a problem. But the athlete needs to be prepared mentally and physically for the discomforts, and my goal with AGT is to help get them metabolically fit enough to push back that threshold so they can go faster at the same or, ideally, less levels of discomfort.

I try to plan AGT to sync up with the competition calendar and periodize accordingly. We do our AGT after weights (power cleans, squats, push presses, etc) which has become more and more to function as the general warmup for AGT. In the preseason, usually 4 weeks or so, I have my athletes do "slow"AGT (band assisted pullups + goblet squats, although slow pushups are good too) gradually adding to the number of rounds. This is analogous to building base mileage. My take on AGT for runners is that they have plenty of MT "batteries" and transport proteins in the legs and hips, but by adding "batteries" and transport proteins to the upper body, we are building a more capacious lactate sink.

As we get into the early meets we phase into more fast twitch AGT, usually one day of two hand swings for "fast tens" with generous active rest and then a second day of unilateral work: snatches or one hand swings. As we get closer to State we will go shorter breaks, increasing that lactate burn a bit more. (Peaking.) When my 5A athlete doubled Gold in the 800 and mile at State last year, her last AGT workout three days out from the meet was just 3 minutes long: 2 hand swings, 10 seconds on 5 seconds off. (120 seconds of actual work: about the same as her personal best 800: 2:03)

As far as 400 meter training goes, this same athlete would run 200s and 400s at earlier meets for speed training and she was right around 55-56 for those efforts. So, I don't know as if I would change much for 400 specialists.

Of course, you need to assess the needs of your particular athletes, but working slow to fast, longer rests to shorter and deciding which meets you will train through and which you will peak for are all key. I am not a running coach, so I have to interface with both athlete and coach to implement and adjust as we go.

A couple of things to keep in mind and watch out for, from an article by Aussie swim coach Bob Treffene on LTAD: Muscular adaptations occur daily, but MT mitosis can explode up to 10% seemingly "overnight". Because it can take up to 10 days before these MT are fully integrated, they are a drain on the athlete's system, resulting in higher than expected heart rates during training, extra fatigue and so on. The recommendation is to back off the intensity of the training from onset of issues for the next 10 days. So don't freak out if after a month of training the athlete experiences a little downturn, just adjust until it passes.

Also: Be aware there is a glycogen and transport protein replenishment lag time after hard training. Type 1 Fibers 36 hours., Type IIA 12 hours and 3 days for IIB. So plan recovery time between loadings appropriately.

Hope this was helpful.

-Randy

Wow, this is great insight. Thanks, @randyh
 

Bauer

Level 7 Valued Member
from an article by Aussie swim coach Bob Treffene on LTAD: Muscular adaptations occur daily, but MT mitosis can explode up to 10% seemingly "overnight"
Thanks for the reference!

Here is the article (not sure if it is publicly available):
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

It features really interesting rules, like
"[rest] 2 days between major high heart rate sets (30 minutes of work each)• Three days between 50 to 200m race speed sets (maximum of 800m in 50 and 100mpace sets)"
" 50m and 100m specialists, use 25m, 30m, 40 and 50m distances; not the pool length. Swimmers should rigorously and frequently train at the pace in which they are to compete tooverload the race’ s requirements and therefore initiate improvements. "
It is impossible for a 100mswimmer to be able to swim 100m at their goal time 100-m pace in training sessions.Therefore race-speed sets constructed using distances that they can swim at their race paceshould be constructed. This normally means training using several distances less than 50meters to make up a total of 100m. The main improvement with a 50 to 100m swimmer withtraining comes from an increase in the lactate removal rate from the white fast-twitch fibresand its eventual oxidation in the type II fibres. The maximum length of race-speed setsshould be limited to 8 min work for 50/100 swimmers (based on 8 min to glycogen depletionat 50m pace). The length of work can be increased to 15 min for 200-m/400-m swimmers(based on around 15 min of work for glycogen depletion at this 200m/400m pace).
The high-intensity heart rate sets need to be suitably located when the red slow and fasttwitch fibres are almost fully stocked with glycogen. Two days should be allowed betweenmajor 30 min high heart-rate sets. (HR sets). Three days should be allowed between 8 minat 50 to 100m race-speed. Fat metabolism sets should be between these sets. Asession witha heart-rate set should preferably be followed by a fat metabolism and a recovery session.Plan the week to use specific race-speed fibres and their metabolic functions, but also allowfor recovery. This requires fat-metabolism sets.
Adaptations occur almost daily within the muscles of a training athlete, but there are twomain adaptations which restrict the athlete in training. One of these adaptations involves thesudden mitosis of up to 10% of mitochondria. The full transition of mitochondria appears toInternational take up to 10 days. During this 10-day period, the aerobic ability is decreased and the heartrates are increased at training speeds. Heart rate measurements can be used to ascertainwhether an athlete is going through an adaptation. This enables the coach to establish whenthe 10-day adaptation period begins. During this adaptation time the program might bealtered. Lowering the intensity or introducing more 1000m to 1500m fat-metabolism sets inthe weekly program to enable the athlete to get through the adaptations.
 

Bauer

Level 7 Valued Member
btw: looking at papers citing Treffene I have found this one from Brent Rushall, making a strong case for short intervals with short rest for swimmers (for example 10-20 seconds of work and 20 seconds of rest):
https://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/bullets/energy39.pdf

Repetitions of 200 m and up are mostly useless for training pool-racing performances. It is the total work performed at race-pace (number of repetitions x distance/number of strokes in a repetition) that is important. As difficult as it might seem to grasp, research has consistently shown that shorter work intervals in an interval training format are more beneficial than longer intervals (Zuniga et al., 2008)
With short rest intervals, it is possible to practice at high-intensity using race-specific techniques and energy systems without becoming devastatingly exhausted. One reason short intervals "work" is that when a high-intensity repetition is completed, the aerobic system continues to function fully paying-back any accumulated oxygen debt developed in the repetition. If the next repetition commences before the aerobic system begins to abate, the demand on the cardiorespiratory system is continuous although the exercise is intermittent. For the whole set, the aerobic system works maximally just as it would in a race. If the rest interval is too long, the aerobic demand in the rest period decreases

Sounds very much like Q&D to me.

Keep in mind that he also goes on to say that swimming is different than running as it is a fully (water) supported activity.
 

Deleted member 5559

Guest
Wanted to highlight a few great takeaways from Randy's post
by adding "batteries" and transport proteins to the upper body, we are building a more capacious lactate sink.
Long training sessions that expand capillary density to use more of the existing sink are important too
one day of two hand swings for "fast tens" with generous active rest and then a second day of unilateral work: snatches or one hand swings.
I saw a decent amount of improvement migrating these to jump squats. Now I'll do the same but rotating between the exercises each set.
last AGT workout three days out from the meet was just 3 minutes long: 2 hand swings, 10 seconds on 5 seconds off.
Fantastic recommendation. Again I'll add a plug for trying jump squats here.
working slow to fast, longer rests to shorter
Best advice in the post. Programs that start short and try to increase the distance of a fast pace usually result in injury in my experience.
 
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