Other/Mixed Is strong really important for combat sports?

[Period]

The answer in my opinion is somewhat complex. It will depend on a number of factors, like the style you train, your personal style (in terms of favorite tactics and techniques), and the level of your partners/opponents.

In general terms though, according to general wisdom, there is such a thing as “strong enough” for each discipline, weight class and category, even though the only clear-cut definitions I have found are for national teams in wrestling (I am more aware of those also because it happens to be my background). Some of these have been published here: E. German Wrestling Strength Standards

I should point out a few things in that regard though: first of all – and this is in line with the Strong First philosophy as far as I know – strength is a skill, and therefore specific. Interestingly enough, no wrestling strength standard that I am aware of lists deadlifts or overhead presses as a test, instead, they tend to list squats, cleans, bench presses (for parterre defense), seal rows, pull-ups and rope climbs (the single best exercise for pulling strength for grapplers as far as I'm concerned). I don’t mean to knock deadlifts, but standard deadlifts test a situation that you will never encounter on the mat, with lots of time to set up, and a slow, controlled pull. Deadlifts can have a place in the training program of a grappler, no doubt (building a strength base etc.), but they are less suitable as a strength standard compared to other options in my opinion.

Secondly, it is highly important to understand that strength work reflects a very small part of training for grapplers. In fact, I’ve known a lot of high level guys that either just strength train a few months in the off-season, or just do strength-endurance work if they are already big and strong enough for their weight class (especially guys that cut a lot of weight). Endurance and strength endurance work make up the bulk of training time aside from mat work (which again is more dependent on endurance and strength endurance in order to accumulate the necessary volume of technique work and sparring). As I have said before, rather than looking at single components in a training system, it is in my opinion more crucial to look at how they are integrated into said system.

In terms of strength endurance work, one of the most popular strategies is rubber bands, since they allow for grappling-specific skill training. If you happen to be interested, I have started to write a manuscript about that, which basically seeks to give an overview over the various strategies, exercises and equipment options, as well as discussing the various online sources available. I have uploaded the state of progress on the German forums last year (although the manuscript is in English), and while I have since added some things, it is still not entirely finished. You can check it out here (you’ll have to register, but registration is free): Leitfaden Gummiband-Training für Grappler - Rohmanuskript - Seite 5
I've tried to upload it here, but unfortunately, the file is too big.

Cheers

Period.

 

[Deleted member 316]

"Stronger people are harder to kill"

 

[Alan Mackey]

I don’t mean to knock deadlifts, but standard deadlifts test a situation that you will never encounter on the mat, with lots of time to set up, and a slow, controlled pull. Deadlifts can have a place in the training program of a grappler, no doubt (building a strength base etc.), but they are less suitable as a strength standard compared to other options in my opinion.

Also, generally speaking, if you can squat 400 lbs. you can also deadlift the same amount of weight with almost no specific training. The reverse is not true.

 

[william bad butt]

Im not qualified to comment but I find it hard to believe that strength isnt critically important.

It has been a very very long time since I abandoned my western boxing and Muay thai martial arts hobby. During that time, I experimented a bit with other martial parts like jujitsu (there were other martial arts taught in this school). Some of the guys at the gym I'd hang with would teach me some very basic stuff. With zero skill or tecnique, I was able to over power some better trained folks (probably still relatively beginner or low intermediate level, no advanced practitioners).

One time wrestling the jujitsu instructor (who coincidentally was also my strength coach, barbell). And he crushed me. He was just playing with me. Guy was a Beast. 1000 lb squatter (when he was younger, not at the time) pushing 300 lb body weight (ex NFL lineman, ex world strongest man competitor, who later in life fell in love with martial arts). I doubt that he would say strength was not a factor.

 

[Period]

Im not qualified to comment but I find it hard to believe that strength isnt critically important.

It has been a very very long time since I abandoned my western boxing and Muay thai martial arts hobby. During that time, I experimented a bit with other martial parts like jujitsu (there were other martial arts taught in this school). Some of the guys at the gym I'd hang with would teach me some very basic stuff. With zero skill or tecnique, I was able to over power some better trained folks (probably still relatively beginner or low intermediate level, no advanced practitioners).

One time wrestling the jujitsu instructor (who coincidentally was also my strength coach, barbell). And he crushed me. He was just playing with me. Guy was a Beast. 1000 lb squatter (when he was younger, not at the time) pushing 300 lb body weight (ex NFL lineman, ex world strongest man competitor, who later in life fell in love with martial arts). I doubt that he would say strength was not a factor.

Nobody said strength wasn't important; as far as I understand, most people have stated that strength is important up to a certain point. Of course, if you are looking at it from the perspective of a stronger person who had some success overpowering weaker people in training, you will come to the conclusion that strength is critically important. And of course, a BJJ instructor that also happens to be bigger and stronger than you shouldn't have any trouble crushing a beginner. In fact, he should be able to do that without relying on strength.
However, strength is just one part of athleticism, and any single part of athleticism can only compensate so much for a lack in other areas, including technique and tactics. Looking at it the other way around, if you look at top grapplers, you will have a handful of statistical outliers up and down, but by and large, you will find that their strength levels are going to hover in a similar ballpark, because of the point of diminishing returns. To the best of my knowledge, no former powerlifter, strongmen competitor etc. has really managed to break into the ranks of international top grapplers so far. Apart from the technique aspect, other components of athleticism come into play, and top grapplers usually have been developing those on average for about 15 years before reaching their level. As for overpowering high-level competitors, feel free to look at the numbers in the link above. While none of the powerlifts are particularly impressive (note: the recommended bench press numbers have gone up significantly in the following decades, based on the stronger preference of the gut wrench in parterre), I would argue that a person with that kind of strength levels isn't easy to overpower.

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

Look at the top guys in ADCC/no-gi, Gordon Ryan, Lucas Barbosa, Andre Galvao, etc. They are all freaking jacked. To compete with the best, is that level of strength a prerequisite? Is it a prerequisite in the same way that aerobic capacity and strength endurance are? I would argue that it definitely is, hence rampant use of anabolics as testing in those leagues is practically non existent.

 

[Period]

Look at the top guys in ADCC/no-gi, Gordon Ryan, Lucas Barbosa, Andre Galvao, etc. They are all freaking jacked. To compete with the best, is that level of strength a prerequisite? Is it a prerequisite in the same way that aerobic capacity and strength endurance are? I would argue that it definitely is, hence rampant use of anabolics as testing in those leagues is practically non existent.

They are jacked, but then again, so are wrestlers. I cannot speak in detail of the strength levels of top no-Gi grapplers, because I haven't trained with those. As far as I've seen Galvao does circuits more than anything, and Gordon Ryan seems to train like a bodybuilder in the weightroom, if his DVD is representative for what he does. However, I have my doubts that they could fullfill all the requirements on the East German charts right away. If anybody knows more about their weightroom numbers, I'd be interested. I have, however, trained with and competed against international level wrestlers, so I can talk about my experiences there.
First of all, "jacked" and "strong" are not the same, and some of the most jacked people I have known actually didn't feel all that strong on the mat, while the strongest people I have met on the mat were quite often dadbods who didn't even weight train heavy, but focused on strength endurance work. Again, I am not trying to bash strength training; however, I should point out that it is a lot more important how much strength a person can generate on the mat than how much weight they can move on a bar. Strength in terms of efficient energy transfer in a specific situation is a skill with limited carry-over. This phenomenon has been well known in international grappling, and some of the people who are known for being extra powerful on the mat do very limited weight training. One example would be Abdulrashid Sadulaev. Therefore, Sadulaevs weightroom numbers are not going to be representative for how strong he really is. On the other hand, he can do five one-arm pull-ups in a row (kipping, but still) at around 100 kg bodyweight. Contrast that with his rival Kyle Snyder, who is a beast in the weightroom, but has lost in their last three of four encounters.

 

[John K]

This is the answer I was hoping is accurate, as I don’t mind a lag. I’m just dreading that this whole journey turns out to be a waste of time and if I only stick with cardio/hiit then I’ll end up ahead. I know that’s not what StrongFirst says, but I’m just frustrated with my performance so I want to make sure sticking to the plan is worth it.

If I understand correctly, you spent 8 months doing nothing, 7 months doing mostly S&S, and the past 5 months focusing on barbell work (which maybe you've done at the same time you were rolling again?). Are you doing any conditioning work, or just BJJ & 5/3/1? Do you do any of the circuits or sprinting Wendler recommends? Have you seen these articles? Strength and Conditioning Program for BJJ Fighters | StrongFirst or The Ultimate Kettlebell Exercise for Martial Conditioning | StrongFirst

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

They are jacked, but then again, so are wrestlers. I cannot speak in detail of the strength levels of top no-Gi grapplers, because I haven't trained with those. As far as I've seen Galvao does circuits more than anything, and Gordon Ryan seems to train like a bodybuilder in the weightroom, if his DVD is representative for what he does. However, I have my doubts that they could fullfill all the requirements on the East German charts right away. If anybody knows more about their weightroom numbers, I'd be interested. I have, however, trained with and competed against international level wrestlers, so I can talk about my experiences there.
First of all, "jacked" and "strong" are not the same, and some of the most jacked people I have known actually didn't feel all that strong on the mat, while the strongest people I have met on the mat were quite often dadbods who didn't even weight train heavy, but focused on strength endurance work. Again, I am not trying to bash strength training; however, I should point out that it is a lot more important how much strength a person can generate on the mat than how much weight they can move on a bar. Strength in terms of efficient energy transfer in a specific situation is a skill with limited carry-over. This phenomenon has been well known in international grappling, and some of the people who are known for being extra powerful on the mat do very limited weight training. One example would be Abdulrashid Sadulaev. Therefore, Sadulaevs weightroom numbers are not going to be representative for how strong he really is. On the other hand, he can do five one-arm pull-ups in a row (kipping, but still) at around 100 kg bodyweight. Contrast that with his rival Kyle Snyder, who is a beast in the weightroom, but has lost in their last three of four encounters.

I do think it would be interesting to have an apples to apples comparison and see if we can find some top level wrestlers competing against current or former ADCC champions.

And I use the term jacked as a stand in for strong simply because I haven’t rolled with any of the top guys, but I can actually observe that they are physically larger and have muscle hypertrophy. I doubt that high level competitors would take that on lightly or in a manner that would be a detriment to competition performance. Likewise, you don’t see many top ADCC competitors who have dad bods.

 

[North Coast Miller]

This is the answer I was hoping is accurate, as I don’t mind a lag. I’m just dreading that this whole journey turns out to be a waste of time and if I only stick with cardio/hiit then I’ll end up ahead. I know that’s not what StrongFirst says, but I’m just frustrated with my performance so I want to make sure sticking to the plan is worth it.

Include some HIIT if nothing else.

Is extremely important to note that strength is very closely tied to how it is acquired. Carry-over is extremely fickle.

Another thing to consider, if you have a strength advantage but don't make use of it, it won't help. You might have to change some of your strategy.

In general strength is important, but timing and technique are far more important.

 

[Goodo]

I'm a first degree blackbelt with just under 20 years experience grappling. My thoughts are these
- in our sport technique always comes before physical attributes
- that being said to compete with trained partners I need to look after myself physically
- I've always found being conditioned (think endurance/rolling at pace for 30minutes) is key
- the previous comments re "strong enough" are spot on.

My goal as far as grappling fitness thefore could be described as - I need to be strong enough to execute my technique against a "stronger" training partner but I don't have to be "stronger" than him. I want to be able to do this at the start of class and the end of it.

Nothing has helped me achieve this better than kettlebells, specifically S&S and this new BJJ protocol.

If you're after better performance in BJJ I do think having max strength as a focus will hold you back.

 

[Period]

I do think it would be interesting to have an apples to apples comparison and see if we can find some top level wrestlers competing against current or former ADCC champions.

And I use the term jacked as a stand in for strong simply because I haven’t rolled with any of the top guys, but I can actually observe that they are physically larger and have muscle hypertrophy. I doubt that high level competitors would take that on lightly or in a manner that would be a detriment to competition performance. Likewise, you don’t see many top ADCC competitors who have dad bods.

I agree, it would be interesting, even though I am not sure which ruleset would be representative - it stands to reason that wrestlers will win in wrestling, no-gi guys in no-gi etc. Given that I have a decent idea about the talent pool in the former Eastern block, I have long said that if grappling ever reaches a similar level of popularity as wrestling in the Caucasus region, a lot of things will change in international grappling. Time will tell. I happen to know a number of top level wrestlers, some in Austria, Germany, Rumania and Bulgaria, and a lot in Dagestan (my freestyle coach went back there and has his wrestling school in Derbent). So if anybody can organize an ADCC competitor and manages to set up a price in the form of, say, a nice Audi, I am confident I can get Dauren Kurugliev (world cup winner in the -86 kg 2020, one of coach's former students) or one of his teammates to take the challenge.
As for hypertrophy etc: you see that especially in the heavyweight category in my opinion, and at least Gordon Ryan has been known to purposefully bulk up for that - it's the only weight category where extra weight will help, even if it doesn't come with a linear increase in strength.
As for dad bods - the strongest person I ever met on the wrestling mat was my former Greco coach. He was in his early 40ies at the time, not competing anymore, but back in the day, he was a teammate to Yoel Romeiro in the German D1. He was competing at -68 kg at the time, but was cutting down from 86, and weighed a bit over 90 kg when I was training with him. He never weight trained heavy in his active time, mostly did dummy work, plate circuits, rubber band work and tons of rope climbing. He is one of the very few people I ever met where if they grab you, you feel the strength drain out of you right away. Partly because he has an extremely strong grip, partly because he will force you out of position the moment he lays hands on you.

 

[Pete L]

I agree with the answers above.
@BJJ Shawn you wrote about the other persons also not having been able to train, however have they been on the same transformative process as you.
I believe you have also lost a significant amount of body mass over this period.
It may be you need to fine tune your skills to your new weight as well as your new strength.
Your strength has increased independently from your BJJ skills whereas, perhaps, if you had developed in conjunction with normal rolling (and with its associated conditioning) you might not be asking this question now?

 

[Stefan Olsson]

"Stronger people are harder to kill"

 

[Alan Mackey]

Oh, my…! That was FANTASTIC.

 

[Stefan Olsson]

Oh, my…! That was FANTASTIC.

I love it! Glad you did to!

 

[BJJ Shawn]

There have been a lot of great responses, so I'll just make a quick response. I am in no way under the impression that strength is a substitute for skill, and I fully understand that it alone is NOT a smart goal for combat. I am still unable to go back to BJJ and can only roll about once a month, so skill training is non-existent and I thought I would take this time to add strength and hypertrophy training since I don't have the ability to focus on skill training.

My frustration is due to the fact that I was under the impression, that before you can develop strength endurance (the ultimate goal for grappling fitness off the mats), the first step would be to improve your base of strength (Strong FIRST). After spending time doing S&S, I wanted to improve my base of strength and as I have indicated n other threads, my next step was to then go back to Q&D/S&S/A+A style of training and try and improve my strength endurance. I still think the plan is solid and I just need more time to implement it, but I'm frustrated by what feels like going backwards in terms of readiness for grappling.

I realize that this is basically a type of "off season" work and it's normal to not maintain all physical skills all year around. But when I start getting pushed around after 10 minutes by people that don't do any strength work and only ride a bike or run because my strength just gives out, it's just frustrating.

Rant over, time to get back to practice.

 

[Anth]

Great conversation. Several people have mentioned the "it depends" aspect. I wonder how your definition of "strength" affects your answer. Does Dry Fighting Weight train strength, for example? Or strength endurance? What would give you more of an advantage on the mat (or in the ring), impressive deadlift numbers, or being able to do DFW with double 32s?

As a striker, I always felt like deadlifts and barbell strength in general is not optimal, but do kettlebells really ever train "strength" as compared to barbell? Or is it always a strength endurance blend?

 

[North Coast Miller]

I realize that this is basically a type of "off season" work and it's normal to not maintain all physical skills all year around. But when I start getting pushed around after 10 minutes by people that don't do any strength work and only ride a bike or run because my strength just gives out, it's just frustrating.

I'm going to say right here you answered 80% of your question. Relative to your sport, a small increase in top end isn't going to do anything for you.

I also know from my days training BB and was very strong for my weight (for not being a powerlifter!) I got rag dolled by more than one person who couldn't have kept up with me for more than 10 minutes in a gym - if you can't hit em you can't hurt em.

I'll put in a caveat here, this is relative to sport combat. In a street fight where the skill component is going to be greatly reduced by lack of situational constraints, being stronger will mean you can:
- stay on your feet longer - absorb more damage and unexpected impact
- hit harder when footing or body angle eliminates a lot of practical technique
- more easily resist uncommitted grabs or pushes

My general view is strength has three components that have to be addressed on their own terms
- level of tension or force developed
- speed of contraction
- volume, duration of contraction or number of uninterrupted cycles

added to these is a fourth that is largely based on and specific to, application - which is tying the above elements into coordinated action.

Figure out what you need most, and build a robot that has those qualities. Some qualities are going to slip even if you use some form of weekly or daily periodization, but it should not be an obvious drop unless you are willing to make that sacrifice or circumstances prevent you from training the way you want..

I personally would advise NOT using longer duration block periodization. It is the "bulk and cut" equivalent of the training world, there are better ways to shift focus without noticeably handicapping other qualities.

 

[John K]

There have been a lot of great responses, so I'll just make a quick response. I am in no way under the impression that strength is a substitute for skill, and I fully understand that it alone is NOT a smart goal for combat. I am still unable to go back to BJJ and can only roll about once a month, so skill training is non-existent and I thought I would take this time to add strength and hypertrophy training since I don't have the ability to focus on skill training.

My frustration is due to the fact that I was under the impression, that before you can develop strength endurance (the ultimate goal for grappling fitness off the mats), the first step would be to improve your base of strength (Strong FIRST). After spending time doing S&S, I wanted to improve my base of strength and as I have indicated n other threads, my next step was to then go back to Q&D/S&S/A+A style of training and try and improve my strength endurance. I still think the plan is solid and I just need more time to implement it, but I'm frustrated by what feels like going backwards in terms of readiness for grappling.

I realize that this is basically a type of "off season" work and it's normal to not maintain all physical skills all year around. But when I start getting pushed around after 10 minutes by people that don't do any strength work and only ride a bike or run because my strength just gives out, it's just frustrating.

Rant over, time to get back to practice.

Have you heard of the legendary Iron Man Mark Allen? He was performing very subpar; he started working with Phil Maffetone who had him slow down - drastically - as he recongized that Allen had an underbuilt aerobic capacity. He rebuilt his aerobic capacity, and eventually he went on to win quite well. I mention this as an analogy to your situation in some ways. I mention that merely as encouragement - trust the process, hang in there. Don't neglect your aerobic base (walks or easy runs). If you're concerned about losing your edge, keep a (short) session a week where you have something more glycolytic/metconny. If you ever need to "talk shop" about training there's quite a few of us that are always happy to wax eloquent.