Is there an updated "PTP"?

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Jon_Frost

Level 6 Valued Member
Hello all,

The new forum looks great, clearly I've been away too long. Recently went back to barbell training after years of kettlebells only. Bought a power rack, bench, and olympic set (I had given away all the same equipment years ago, idiot) and started on 5x5. My training partner and I started from scratch with just the bar, etc. My concern was always the squats and my knees. Yesterday we had worked up to 165 in the squats and after my knee doesn't feel quite right. My fear is that squats are not going to benefit me in any real way that I couldn't do with deads. The other issue I have is I really miss kettlebell training. I cannot find my copy of PTP so before I order another, I am wondering if there is an new barbell program that has replaced PTP like S&S has for kettlebell training? I would like to alternate cycles of PTP (or similar) with kettlebell training as described in PTP, but just want to make sure there's nothing I am missing. I would prefer to pay for something I know is going to this company, or Pavel, rather than ordering off Amazon if possible. Thanks!

Jon
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Welcome back, Jon.

There is another book called PTTP Professional, but it's quite different and not an update of the original, which is still very good and very useable and very highly recommended. I cannot offer advice about where to buy it.

Deadlift heavy, squat with kettlebells to keep the movement pattern - no need anyone must squat with a heavy barbell.

-S-
 

Steve W.

Level 7 Valued Member
Welcome back, Jon.

There is another book called PTTP Professional, but it's quite different and not an update of the original, which is still very good and very useable and very highly recommended. I cannot offer advice about where to buy it.

Deadlift heavy, squat with kettlebells to keep the movement pattern - no need anyone must squat with a heavy barbell.

-S-
+1

PTTP Professional is a very interesting book, but don't buy it thinking it is PTTP 2.0.

For general strength and health, DL plus KB squats (FSQ or GSQ) is a great combo, especially if barbell back squats are problematic for you in any way.

PTTP is still a great book/program. One "update" included in the Russian language version of the book is using a 532 rep scheme with a fixed weight, rather than a top set of 5 and a backoff set of 5 at 90% of the top set. No significant difference in effect, but less calculating and plate changing. Pavel has also mentioned that he would use the bench press instead of the side press, just because it is more familiar and popular, plus the bench allows for heavier total weights and easier long term progression.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Jon, what Steve said - 5-3-2 allows you to use the same weight on the bar. I don't know if it's _better_ than two sets of 5 with a lower second set but it is more convenient, and probably it is better because, when you're done, you've moved heavier weights.

-S-
 

Krabapplekid

Level 1 Valued Member
Have you considered the low bar powerlifting squat?

On another Internet forum I once gave the advice "you do not choose the deadlift technique, the deadlift technique chooses you." The same can be said for any heavy barbell lift.

This is not advice for a beginner, but it is a journey that every experienced lifter knows well.

Everyone can squat in some capacity. You must find the squat that works for you. Which is to say you need to learn how to squat in a pain free range of motion.

If you cannot squat powerfully and pain free, i would make that your singular focus.

PTTP is great as well if your itching to deadlift. As for the SQ vs DL argument I say master both.
 

D BLOCK

Level 1 Valued Member
I'm not an expert, but I think the trap bar deadlift might suit you. It's kind of a combination between the deadlift and the squat.
 

Jon_Frost

Level 6 Valued Member
I don't know what the low bar powerlifting squat is? I will look into the trap bar dead, I've never done that one either. Thanks everyone!
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Jon, there are different squat styles. The way they're usually described:

High Bar - might be practiced by an Olympic lifter as an assistance exercise, bar sits relatively high on the back, posture is relatively upright, knees come forward somewhat.

Low Bar - favored by powerlifters, wider stance, bar lower on back, shins more vertical, and much more of a deadlift/hip_hinge groove. Rif calls this a deadlift with the bar on your back.

(There is also a front squat with the bar racked across your shoulder in front of you and not on your back. This is also a fine exercise and one I think everyone ought to try and be able to perform in a full ROM with a non-trivial weight, perhaps bodyweight.)

IMHO, and this is strictly personal opinion, no one _needs_ to own a trap bar and do trapbar deadlifts except if injury or other reason prevents them from doing regular deadlifts and regular squats. For me, the trap bar DL groove is too in-between and I'd rather stick to the separate lifts. That said, there are some world record-holding lifters who use the trap bar DL regularly in their training - but I am not them, and you are not them.

I'm repeating myself, but I recommend you learn to load your DL heavy and keep your squats light while making sure you achieve full range of motion in whatever squatting movement you decide to do. To me, this combination is more "functional", which is just another way of saying I like it better for myself and for most people, most of the time, and can't give you a better explanation than that. :)

-S-
 

Jon_Frost

Level 6 Valued Member
I agree Steve. Yesterday I re-ordered both versions of PTP and will go back to cycling that with kettlebells. I am 6'2" and 150 lbs, and have been for 25 years. I need to focus on what works best for my body. And I think deads and kettlebells are going to give me the most in terms of results and the least in terms of injuries/pain. Thanks again!
 

Bill Been

Level 6 Valued Member
The low bar back squat carries the bar just below the spine of your scapulae. The lower bar position necessitates a more horizontal back angle in order to keep the bar over the middle of your foot. This causes a more closed hip angle, and a more open knee angle, the combination of which causes tight hamstrings at the bottom of the squat. So, as the quads pull on the anterior aspect of the tibia via the patellar tendon, the hams are pulling against the tibias from the posterior aspect. The net result of all this is balanced moment forces about the knee. Additionally, the more horizontal back angle makes the moment arm against the hip much, much longer and the moment arm about the knee much, much shorter, transferring load off the knee and to the hip. Where you carry the bar dictates the diagnostic angles of the squat and therefore which joints see the most moment force during the movement. A front squat, bar or kettlebell, causes an open (more vertical) back angle and hip angle, a much more closed knee angle, more forward knee travel, slack(er) hamstrings, and more moment force about the knee.
 

Jon_Frost

Level 6 Valued Member
Great video Steve. If I remember, years ago you used to do the "hand and thigh" lift from PTP? I did as well, but not for any real length of time or to any appreciable weight. Do you still do this lift? Do you find any advantage/disadvantage? I am waiting on my PTP copies, I think I've forgotten quite a bit. :)
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Hand and thigh lift generally means something different now than the Health Lift, which is a partial DL from pins in the rack (or otherwise elevated). I don't usually do either, although I've done both H&T and a Health Lift in the AWA at meets.

The advantage of the Health Lift is its reduced range of motion, allowing greater weight. I prefer the full ROM myself and even do them from a deficit (standing on blocks) but, at your height, I'm not sure I'd do that. Starting with the bar elevated and gradually increasing the ROM would be a solid approach for you, IMHO.

-S-
 

Bill Been

Level 6 Valued Member
Jon, I just re-read your OP. What do you mean by you "worked up to 165"? And can you post a video of your squat? Lotsa people believe "squatting hurts your knees", but as Dan John once said: "squatting isn't bad for your knees. Whatever you're doing there is bad for your knees".

And Steve - my post and the video you posted are completely at odds with each other. Right off, Mr. Cook says (paraphrasing) that front squat, back squat, doesn't matter there's a lot of joints that are being "maxed out" in a squat. I explained why that is not the case in a full-depth low-bar back squat. That was a straw man upon which the remainder of the video rested.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
And Steve - my post and the video you posted are completely at odds with each other. Right off, Mr. Cook says (paraphrasing) that front squat, back squat, doesn't matter there's a lot of joints that are being "maxed out" in a squat. I explained why that is not the case in a full-depth low-bar back squat. That was a straw man upon which the remainder of the video rested.
Bill, I am convinced that you like to pick a fight. :)

Gray Cook doesn't touch on the low bar back squat - his back squat is the high bar kind.

Low Bar - favored by powerlifters, wider stance, bar lower on back, shins more vertical, and much more of a deadlift/hip_hinge groove. Rif calls this a deadlift with the bar on your back.
I'm quoting myself here to make the point again but in a different way - a PL, low-bar squat isn't a squat in the traditional sense, and the video is about the squat in the traditional sense.

-S-
 

Jon_Frost

Level 6 Valued Member
Bill, by "worked up" I mean we started the 5x5 program per the instructions, so we started squats with just the bar, bench with just the bar, etc. There is an app for the program that tells you when to add weight, etc. I will see if I can get a video done. Thanks!
 

Bill Been

Level 6 Valued Member
Bill, by "worked up" I mean we started the 5x5 program per the instructions, so we started squats with just the bar, bench with just the bar, etc. There is an app for the program that tells you when to add weight, etc. I will see if I can get a video done. Thanks!
I think I understand, Jon. What I was dancing around was: is 165 for 5x5 the result of 5 or 6 workouts with progressively increased loads, or did you mean that 165 is where you worked up to during your initial session?
 
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