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Barbell Is there such a thing--antiglycolytic training w/ barbell?

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GeoffreyLevens

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I do not have enough knowledge of physiology to figure this out I think. Wondering if viable, instead of kettlebell swing or snatch, to use something like touch and go dead lifts or zercher squats. Same rules i.e. find a rep max that 1/2 of which would take 10-15 seconds and do that i.e. 10-15 seconds of touch and go DL's. Then rest until fully recovered and repeat for many sets....

Goals basically the same as using kb but taking dodgy shoulder out of ballistic use at least for awhile.
 
Edit: Just saw Al's post due to combo of how link from email notice works and ADD DOH!

I have a bone spur or arthritis I suspect from old shoulder injury (AC separation catching) and though I can hold a fair bit of weight in dead hang, doing anything overhead or even fast movement of that shoulder in quite a few planes, pisses it off; that means kb snatches, swings, LCC&J etc.

Quick search looks like "rest pause" is generally done w/ very short rests and fairly high weight, aiming at pump and hypertrophy. But I guess modifying it for long rests etc and just keeping the short sets puts it in ballpark.

I guess my real question was if doing fairly fast but really not ballistic movement will likely get same mitochondrial benefits as kb snatch or swing. And Al pretty much answered that above...
 
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Found this:

Rest-Pause Training: Re-Visited!
Luckily, I recently came up with a way to combine a training approach that I learned from Coach Ethan Reeve of Wakeforest University with rest-pause training to make it much more user friendly.

What you do initially to prepare yourself for modified rest-pause training is to take your three rep max and do ten singles with that weight. Instead of taking only 10-15 seconds between each set, take one-minute breaks between each set.

For most people, this won't be too difficult and that, of course, is the point. I want you to build a pattern of success with a few relatively easy training sessions to prepare you for the brutal rest pause training sessions to follow. Once you can complete all ten singles with one minute breaks, decrease the breaks to 45 seconds between each set. Keep the weight the same.

Once you can complete all ten sets at 45 seconds, go down to 30 seconds. Once you can do that, go to 15 seconds (even though you're only resting 15 seconds, you'll still rack the weight in-between).

At 15 seconds you'll definitely understand how rest-pause training works and you'll love how hard and pumped up your muscles feel after doing several sets. It's much more satisfying then the bloated, soft feel of doing lots of reps with a relatively light weight. If your body-fat is low enough, your veins should look like they're going to explode.

Once you've completed ten sets with 15 second breaks, increase the weight by 10 pounds and go back to one minute breaks between sets. Work your way down the rest pause ladder again until you're back to 15-second breaks. At that point, increase the weight again by another 10 pounds.
 
GeoffreyLevens said:
I do not have enough knowledge of physiology to figure this out I think. Wondering if viable, instead of kettlebell swing or snatch, to use something like touch and go dead lifts or zercher squats. Same rules i.e. find a rep max that 1/2 of which would take 10-15 seconds and do that i.e. 10-15 seconds of touch and go DL's. Then rest until fully recovered and repeat for many sets....
Click to expand...

Cluster Sets

This is Cluster Set Training or sometime referred to as Geoff stated, Pause Training.

Cluster Sets are, as you described, rest periods taken between a reps or set of reps in one set.

Cluster Sets training is in the...

Phosphagen Energy System

ATP (Adenosin Triphospahte) is the primary energy source, not glucose (carbohydrates) nor ketones (fats).

The Phosphagen Energy System is employed with highly intensive movement that last up to 30 seconds. However, ATP is usually depleted in 10 -15 seconds; after 10 - 15 seconds Strength, Power and Speed drop like a rock.

Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber

In highly intensive movements Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are engaged quickly. They are also depleted quickly.

"Super" Fast Twitch Type IIb/x are involved to a greater extent in Power and Speed Movements.

Fast Twitch Type IIa are involved more in Strength Movements to a greater degree. They fatigue quickly but last slightly longer than "Super" Fast Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber.

Movement Intensity and Time

In highly intense movements, "Super" Fast Type IIb/x are elicited first. They also fatigue first.

Once fatigued, Fast Type IIa are called into play. They last a little longer but then fatigue.

Once you have fatigued "Super" Fast Type IIb/x and Fast Type IIa, Slow Twitch Type I Muscle Fiber take over.

Thus, the last few repetitions in a high repetition set is only working the Slow Twitch Type I Muscle Fiber, not the two Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

ATP Restoration

ATP (the fuel for Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber) can partially be restored to the muscles in a matter of seconds.

One research source determined that up to 50% of ATP is restored in 30 seconds. Dr Greg Haff's research demonstrated that close to 80% of ATP is restored in approximately 45 seconds.

Thus, Cluster Set Training Protocols work and develop the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber; increase your Power, Speed and Strength.

Geoff has posted information regarding his use of Cluster Sets Training.


A Component of The Program

A key component with the use of Cluster Sets in the development of Power and or Speed is fatigue.

Each repetition need to be performed explosively.

Once your Power and/or Speed drop, that means your Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber have run out of gas, they are not working.

Continuing to perform an exercise once Power or Speed has dropped means you are working the Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber, which defeats the purpose of your training.

Thus, when Power or Speed drop in a Cluster Set, STOP.

Training Percentages For Power and Speed

This is another vital component for Power and Speed Training.

1) Power Training Percentages: 48 - 62% of your 1 Repetition Max (1 RM) for Traditional Movements like the Deadlift, Squat, Bench Press.

2) Speed Training Percentages: 10- 40%, with around 30% being the Sweet Spot for Traditional Movements like the Deadlift, Squat, Bench Press.

"10-15 seconds of touch and go DL's."

This allows for ATP Restoration, increasing your Power and Speed.

However, if you increase your rest periods for you Cluster Set to 30 seconds or a little longer, that will increase the weight/percentage of 1 Repetition Max that you are able to use; just a suggestion to consider.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Good ideas but my shoulder does not like going overhead. There is a very narrow angle of rotation/position that humerus can be in and if slightly out either direction, shoulder lights up and radiates deep, bone pain for a week or longer. Also sometimes twinges for seemingly no reason. Almost certain there's a bone spur in there from arthritis due to chronic instability; got 1st degree AC joint tear 40 or 45 years ago (skateboarding swimming pool) then banged it again about 25 years ago (martial arts, bad fall) and got 2nd degree separation. About 8 years ago when first starting w/ kettlebells and doing snatches, it started to bother me a fair bit and just "trained through it". DUH!. Got so inflamed I couldn't use the arm for more than decor for several months, not even tooth brushing or butt wiping. Maybe TMI but there it is. Finally learning. So definitely both cleans and presses are off the table. I need exercises where upper arm stays very low and static. Going w/ DL's and Zercher squats.

Just got back from finding out that the PT in our little town has a super nice gym in back of his studio. He's a power lifter type. $35/month or if over 65 which is me only $30 and I can give it a try for a month and see how it goes. If I like it and my body agrees, I'll buy a "starter" barbell set and squat rack. Only about 15 minute walk from my home. Perfect warmup and cool down.
 
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kennycro@@aol.com said:
One research source determined that up to 50% of ATP is restored in 30 seconds. Dr Greg Haff's research demonstrated that close to 80% of ATP is restored in approximately 45 seconds.
Click to expand...

This is interesting because the standard rule of thumb is that "full" ATP restoration takes 3 minutes. I guess it depends on aerobic capacity since it is the aerobic energy system that refuels ATP - I hope I have that right. Given that your average meathead shuns aerobic work like a vampire shuns garlic, the average bro may very well need 3 minutes.
 
GeoffreyLevens said:
I do not have enough knowledge of physiology to figure this out I think. Wondering if viable, instead of kettlebell swing or snatch, to use something like touch and go dead lifts or zercher squats. Same rules i.e. find a rep max that 1/2 of which would take 10-15 seconds and do that i.e. 10-15 seconds of touch and go DL's. Then rest until fully recovered and repeat for many sets....

Goals basically the same as using kb but taking dodgy shoulder out of ballistic use at least for awhile.
Click to expand...
Sounds good! In my prior life playing with CF I really enjoyed 2 rep EMOM Power clean and jerk with the barbell, it felt amazing.

I'm sure 2-3 explosively executed DL's, inline with the % of RM as above, will work a treat.

Give your suggestion a go and report back??
 
Not hooked in at gym yet so this morning used my two heaviest kb's 24kg and 20 kg(switched hands each set). If online 1rm calculator is to be believed that's about 65-65% of my 1RM based on how dl's felt. I did first 2 sets w/ 4 reps and that took 15 seconds or slightly over. So the rest I did 3 reps. On the 11th/12th sets I could tell that was enough. Rested between 60 and 90 seconds between sets depending on how I felt. It will take some time of course to see what real outcomes are.
 
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MikeTheBear said:
This is interesting because the standard rule of thumb is that "full" ATP restoration takes 3 minutes. I guess it depends on aerobic capacity since it is the aerobic energy system that refuels ATP - I hope I have that right. Given that your average meathead shuns aerobic work like a vampire shuns garlic, the average bro may very well need 3 minutes.
Click to expand...

From:
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnme/2010/905612/


Also in support of the biphasic recovery of CrP, Bogdanis et al. [5] found that following a 30 seconds sprint on a cycle ergometer CrP was depleted to 19.5% of resting levels immediately following the cessation of exercise. After 1.5 minutes of recovery CrP was restored to 65% however after another 4.5 minutes of recovery CrP had only slightly increased further to 85%. Mathematical models predicted that CrP resynthesis would not reach even 95% of resting value until 13.6 minutes after exercise.

But...recovery rate is determined by intensity and how much the CrP stores have been depleted. But...CrP stores will be depleted rapidly if you are actually engaging all your motor units - working at higher %RM.

Also, CrP restoration is not the same as ATP restoration. Total stores of ATP only drop a little bit and if they go too low the muscles will lock up, hence protective measures to limit intense muscle contraction to short duration. All muscle fibers use ATP for energy, but not all use the same reaction pathway to break down ATP. Different fiber types have different forms of myosin ATPase and this determines how fast they can contract.

Base ATP levels restore within seconds via all three pathways (mostly glycolytic and aerobic) but CrP stores have to be restored via surplus ATP in the mitochondria - doesn't matter if it is fat or carb based. The extra steps are what cause a lag, and then there needs to be excess creatine around to bind the phosphate - probably why it takes so long to fully recharge CrP even though initially it recharges pretty quickly back to a somewhat functional level.
 
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MikeTheBear said:
This is interesting because the standard rule of thumb is that "full" ATP restoration takes 3 minutes. I guess it depends on aerobic capacity since it is the aerobic energy system that refuels ATP - I hope I have that right. Given that your average meathead shuns aerobic work like a vampire shuns garlic, the average bro may very well need 3 minutes.
Click to expand...

3 Minutes ATP Restoration

Yes, the "Standard Rule..." is ATP Restoration take 3 minutes, or longer. As you know the intensity of the effort involved is a determinate factor in how much recovery time is required for full ATP Restoration. More on that in a second.

Some type of aerobic training definitely helps anerobic athlete recovery faster. The training can be Low Intensity Aerobic Training or High Intensity Interval Training, HIIT. HIIT is increases both anerobic and aerobic capacity.

Effects of Different Set Configurations On Barbell Velocity and Displacement During A Clean Pull
Haff, G. Gregory; WHITLEY, ADRIAN; MCCOY, LORA B.; More
Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research . 17(1):95-103, February 2003.

As per Haff..."It has been noted in the literature that 15 seconds of recover can result in a 79.7 plus/minus 2.3% restoration of maximal force generating capabilities after a maximal voluntary contraction. This ability to partially recover between repetitions allows the athlete to handle near maximal weights for many repetitions. The ability to elevate both volume and intensity (volume load) will most likely result in elevations in hypertrophic and neural adaptations as a result of the training bout (6)."

My previous post stated a second rest period between clusters. My memory was off. I should have checked Haff's article, listed above.

The reference to 50% of ATP Restoration occurring in 30 seconds was from an Exercise Physiology Collage Class that I took years ago.

est Periods between Cluster Sets definitely increase Power Output. However, as with most things, their is some disagreement as to how much ATP Restoration occurs during what amount of time.

Dr Jake Wilson

In an interview with Dr Jake Wilson, he stated that most individual who Strength Train inadvertently preform Cluster Sets, unknowingly.

Example

When performing let's say a 5 Repetition Max Set, lifters often get three Reps, then due to the amount of effort needed to complete the third Repetition, they Pause at the top Locked Out Position (let say in a Squat) for let's say 10 - 15 seconds.

Most likely, they would Pause at the top of the 4 Repetition, as well.

The Pause at the third and fourth Repetition allow for some ATP Restoration.

Thus, their 5 Repetition Set is actually a Cluster Set

Cluster 1: 3 Reps

Rest: 10 - 15 Seconds

Cluster 2: 1 Rep

Rest 10 - 15 Seconds

Cluster 3: 1 Rep

Their 5 Repetition Max Set?

It isn't a set of 5 continues Non-stop Repetitions.

It is Cluster Set Training.

The training effect of a Continuous Non-Stop Repetition Set vs Cluster Set elicits a slightly different Training Effect. It not good or bad, just different.

Powerlifting Rules

A lifter who misses an attempt that follows himself on the next attempt is given 60 seconds to decide if he want to follow himself with the same weight. Smart lifter take that full 60 seconds, even though they know they are taking the same weight.

The lifter is then given 3 minutes to get the the platform for his following attempt with the same weight.

Planned right, this give the lifter close to 4 minutes to recovery

Chip McCain's 1980 World Championship Deadlift Attempt

One of the best/smartest lifter of the 1980's was Chip McCain.

At the 198o World Championships, McCain/220 lbs, opened with a 788 lb/357.5 kg Deadlift. He pulled it to the top, lost his grip, dropping the bar, disqualifying the lift.

Resting For His Next Pull

McCain realized that due to effort in his first attempt with 788 lbs/357.5 kg that he needed more than 4 minute to recovery.

McCain took 60 seconds in deciding to follow himself on his second attempt with the same weight. After three minutes, they called him to the platform. McCain was a no show.

McCain then took 60 seconds in deciding to follow himself on his third and final attempt with the same weight. McCain then took close to his 3 minutes for his last "Do or Die" attempt.

McCain's plan allowed him closet to 8 minutes of recovery time for his final Deadlift.

McCain pulled the 788 lb/357.5 kg Deadlift. It was a hard pull.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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To take the original question away from the OP somewhat, I wonder if a C+P+FSQ routine could be designed? I seem to recall someone doing one the KB versions like DFW with a barbell. Has anyone tried something like this?
 
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