Kettlebell Is this A+A? If not, what?

[Aziatik]

Instead of the snatches today i decided to run some inertiawave intervals to take it a bit lighter on my deltoids and still get some posterior chain work in. I did 30 seconds of work and rested until my heart rate got down to 100 plus or minus 5 bpm. The rest periods were about 1:30 to 2 minutes. My heart rate, as you can see, exceeded 150 bpm each set, topping out at 172 on a particularly hard go of it. Juat curious if this falla into the A+A bucket? Or what type of adaptation is this triggering? My body juat knows that it likes it! Here is a snapshot of some of that work...

 

[Anna C]

I would say, not exactly... although I haven't done Inertia Wave. Looks fun!

The reason I say that is that A+A requires fast depletion of PCr in the working muscles. So, BIG work, BIG force production, FAST, for some hard and heavy work in about a 15 second window of time. Then recovery. Then repeat. Inertia wave looks like it requires a good amount of energy, but not particularly fast and powerful, therefore probably not depleting the Alactic "tank" (PCr). And, 30 second work bouts gets you into glycolysis.

I might call it HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training). Interested in others' thoughts....

 

[wespom9]

A+A can be interval training. Interval training does not mean A+A

Is it just me or is the A+A thing taking on some sort of mythic quality around here? haha I'm a huge proponent we gotta recognize goals and understanding basic physiology and training parameters. Like Anna said, ~15 seconds at most. Powerful. Long rest. Repeat ad nauseum.

 

[Ryan T]

A+A can be interval training. Interval training does not mean A+A

Is it just me or is the A+A thing taking on some sort of mythic quality around here? haha I'm a huge proponent we gotta recognize goals and understanding basic physiology and training parameters. Like Anna said, ~15 seconds at most. Powerful. Long rest. Repeat ad nauseum.

Indeed. I think the idea is that A+A is a sustainable template for long-term progress and health, but that doesn't mean that it's the only type of training worth doing, nor do we have to try and slap the A+A label on everything out there. As research is done and more protocols are updated, there will be fresh wave of trying to fit everything into a new label even if it doesn't fit.

Instead of the snatches today i decided to run some inertiawave intervals to take it a bit lighter on my deltoids and still get some posterior chain work in. I did 30 seconds of work and rested until my heart rate got down to 100 plus or minus 5 bpm. The rest periods were about 1:30 to 2 minutes. My heart rate, as you can see, exceeded 150 bpm each set, topping out at 172 on a particularly hard go of it. Juat curious if this falla into the A+A bucket? Or what type of adaptation is this triggering? My body juat knows that it likes it! Here is a snapshot of some of that work... View attachment 17562

Perhaps switch to heavy 2hsw for sets of 5-7 and keep it A+A for real. Another possibility is fast, explosive jump squats.
You can also take a break from A+A specific training. The rules of autoregulation can still apply if you want.

 

[Aziatik]

A+A can be interval training. Interval training does not mean A+A

Is it just me or is the A+A thing taking on some sort of mythic quality around here? haha I'm a huge proponent we gotta recognize goals and understanding basic physiology and training parameters. Like Anna said, ~15 seconds at most. Powerful. Long rest. Repeat ad nauseum.

Totally, just curious as to the nature of it. I mean, S&S fits the bill and it pushes 20 second sets. When I'm doing hill sprints that also fits the bill at a 5 to 7 second clip full out. 30 seconds begins to get glycotic... Really its the heart rate spike and quickish recovery that has me stumped as to the triggered adaptation.

Indeed. I think the idea is that A+A is a sustainable template for long-term progress and health, but that doesn't mean that it's the only type of training worth doing, nor do we have to try and slap the A+A label on everything out there. As research is done and more protocols are updated, there will be fresh wave of trying to fit everything into a new label even if it doesn't fit.


Perhaps switch to heavy 2hsw for sets of 5-7 and keep it A+A for real. Another possibility is fast, explosive jump squats.
You can also take a break from A+A specific training. The rules of autoregulation can still apply if you want.

Also, totally, don't care about the label, just care about understanding the adaptation and I've not seen hr spikes like that with quick recovery. I'm genuinely curious as to the triggered adaptation for the type if work. Hiit, metcon, chaos training.... Not sure how to think of it. a couple times a week seems to do me good though.

I'm on RoP and do a+a snatches and swings 3x a week or more. Just mixed this in today because my shoulders were feeling smoked. Woukd normally be a variety day thing.

 

[Ryan T]

Totally, just curious as to the nature of it. I mean, S&S fits the bill and it pushes 20 second sets. When I'm doing hill sprints that also fits the bill at a 5 to 7 second clip full out. 30 seconds begins to get glycotic... Really its the heart rate spike and quickish recovery that has me stumped as to the triggered adaptation.


Also, totally, don't care about the label, just care about understanding the adaptation and I've not seen hr spikes like that with quick recovery. I'm genuinely curious as to the triggered adaptation for the type if work. Hiit, metcon, chaos training.... Not sure how to think of it. a couple times a week seems to do me good though.

I'm on RoP and do a+a snatches and swings 3x a week or more. Just mixed this in today because my shoulders were feeling smoked. Woukd normally be a variety day thing.

Al would tell you to use the HR as a baseline and compare again in 6-12 months. The HR doesn't necessarily have to guide you while you train A+A.

Strangely enough, my breathing is somewhat disconnected from my HR (up to a point). That is, I can breath calmly, but my HR can be 140+ bpm

 

[Aziatik]

Strangely enough, my breathing is somewhat disconnected from my HR (up to a point). That is, I can breath calmly, but my HR can be 140+ bpm

That's wild, haven't heard that before. You have a large lung capacity?

In the end looks like this is gonna get treated as hiit/metcon and used maybe a bit more sparingly...Indeed, let's see in a year! Thanks everyone for the feedback!

 

[Aziatik]

I would say, not exactly... although I haven't done Inertia Wave. Looks fun!

The reason I say that is that A+A requires fast depletion of PCr in the working muscles. So, BIG work, BIG force production, FAST, for some hard and heavy work in about a 15 second window of time. Then recovery. Then repeat. Inertia wave looks like it requires a good amount of energy, but not particularly fast and powerful, therefore probably not depleting the Alactic "tank" (PCr). And, 30 second work bouts gets you into glycolysis.

I might call it HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training). Interested in others' thoughts....

Hope you get a chance to try it! I'm curious about your impressions and those of others here who are science minded about their training... Really for me its about figuring out it's place in my training week to week and long term. Don't want to be my own worst enemy aa ibe once been during my CrossFit phase.

 

[Cearball]

Kettlebell - A+A how does it work/can you freestyle it?

Hi all, I am thinking of changing my training. Still inspired by Tom Furman's Armour of war I am thinking of trying a free style program from "Train for Life" called "NAK: minimalist freestyle programme". It's heavily inspired by Pavel & it's essentially Naked warrior with swing/clean days &...

www.strongfirst.com

This thread contained some interesting points I found.

 

[Adachi]

Strangely enough, my breathing is somewhat disconnected from my HR (up to a point). That is, I can breath calmly, but my HR can be 140+ bpm

I have been having a very similar experience with doing clean & jerk , now clean & push press with the 40kg bell EMOM

I get past 10 minutes and my heart rate continues to climb. But every 30 seconds I take a slightly slower breath and pause, noting the lack of urgency for the next breath before I clean the bell again.

It's a very interesting sensation, breathing calmly as the heart races.

 

[Hung]

Question for Anna, Ryan and wespom0 (and other knowlegeable memebers):
The speed day (or power day like Kenny like to said) of WSB have 10 - 15 sets of 2-3 reps squat, done explosively, with low rest (30 - 60s). Also 8 - 10 deadlift, single, done explosively, with 15 - 30 s rest.
Can it be considered A+A?

 

[wespom9]

Al would tell you to use the HR as a baseline and compare again in 6-12 months. The HR doesn't necessarily have to guide you while you train A+A.

Strangely enough, my breathing is somewhat disconnected from my HR (up to a point). That is, I can breath calmly, but my HR can be 140+ bpm

Anecdotally I am the same, I can be 5-10 beats above my 180-age and while obviously heavier, can breathe nasally. I seem to remember some people here saying those who take part in breathing practices notice the same? I'm not endurance guy by any means, nor can I claim any regularity to breathing practices but it does make sense..

 

[wespom9]

Question for Anna, Ryan and wespom0 (and other knowlegeable memebers):
The speed day (or power day like Kenny like to said) of WSB have 10 - 15 sets of 2-3 reps squat, done explosively, with low rest (30 - 60s). Also 8 - 10 deadlift, single, done explosively, with 15 - 30 s rest.
Can it be considered A+A?

Wes is my first name!
COULD be, yes. Once again, Al is the best guy to ask since he came up with it (does he still post? I haven't been as regular on here in the last couple months as I was before to know) but the original intent was low rep, high emphasis power, autoregulated rest, when fresh do it again. There should be no drop in power. So for some people, that scheme could be. Others may not recover. I remember when the PUSH band came out amid the VBT craze there was emphasis on using for autoregulation as it's immediate feedback. Makes tons of sense to me. Might actually be more helpful than an HRM honestly...

 

[Anna C]

Question for Anna, Ryan and wespom0 (and other knowlegeable memebers):
The speed day (or power day like Kenny like to said) of WSB have 10 - 15 sets of 2-3 reps squat, done explosively, with low rest (30 - 60s). Also 8 - 10 deadlift, single, done explosively, with 15 - 30 s rest.
Can it be considered A+A?

Yes, I think so. Rapid PCr depletion with a demanding full-body movement, short duration so as to not move too far into glycolysis, short-ish rest/recovery between efforts, and many total efforts/repeats/sets in a session.

Wes makes a good point about no drop in power, too.

 

[Anna C]

Also, totally, don't care about the label, just care about understanding the adaptation and I've not seen hr spikes like that with quick recovery. I'm genuinely curious as to the triggered adaptation for the type if work. Hiit, metcon, chaos training.... Not sure how to think of it. a couple times a week seems to do me good though.

There's a lot of overlap. You are training effort---recovery---effort---recovery, and I'm sure you're using all 3 energy systems, as does A+A. Perhaps not emphasizing alactic and aerobic quite as much... and perhaps a bit more glycolysis... but really, in terms of energy systems, there is a lot in common. And you go on for a while, so that is a fairly large energy demand in total. And your HR indicates that you are working hard during the work intervals.

As for the other adaptations, it depends on to what degree the activity uses fast twitch vs. slow twitch muscle fiber, the degree of acidity you build in the intervals, how much fatigue you induce, what the target muscles are... etc.

And maybe you mean cardiorespiratory adaptations? In that case, I would say what you are doing is just as good, and probably better, than A+A.

 

[Reuben B]

Best I can tell, A&A is typically designed to preferentially stress atp and pcr stores ("alactate,) and the aerobic metabolism of carbohydrates. ( I think confusion arises because aerobic sometimes is assumed to refer to a work rate where fat is the primary energy source.)
If you were able to maintain power output for 30seconds, you weren't maximally stressing the "alactate" system. That is more in line with anaerobic glycolysis. So no, I would not call it A&A.
With a 1:3 work/rest ratio that you were able to maintain for nearly a hour, I would guess the over all stress was that of a lactate steadyish state. So yes to the aerobic metabolism of carbs.
It's more of a sliding scale then any sort of hard and fast division of adaptions. We could call these workouts lactate & aerobic... I think for most of us, the principle of specificity is more relevant to what adaptions we will get than any detailed metabolic profile.

 

[Aziatik]

The maker of IW calls it metabolic conditioning, he also uses the term hiit, but he recommendeds far shorter rest periods and a minute of sustained activity per round. Definitely cannot manage that right now. So what i was shooting for in that session yesterday was to avoid an acid bath while pushing my heart rate way up, fitting the tool into the training style that "gives more than it takes".

Since what i've gathered from your feedback is that a+a requires higher output and shorter work time i think next time i'll use the IW while executing jump lunges and explosive squat jumps like Ryan mentioned and see where that gets me. I see that there is a recommed move from the IW team that looks just like that and they call it the "oxygen thief". Gave me a chuckle....

Yesterday i managed 12ish repeats over about a half an hour and it was tough. The harder i waved the harder it became to stabilize and keep up. It definitely took more out of me than A+A becauae by the end of the day my body was really pooped but no soreness today. So the jump squat/lunge intervals for shorter time will be an interesting experiment, albeit with a much more explosive jump thqt the IW team demonstrates. Apparently lateral movement is also something to integrate, like cossak squats, courtsey lunges, crossover footwork and the like... Maybe even high knee sprint type warm ups. Feels like tip of the iceberg.

I posted this thread because i really trust the minds of the people here. To have this forum as a tool to help one another, in this case, find the way things can fit together is fantastic. It triggered me to do a bit more homework myself and I stumbled upon this and thought to share it -

Igniting Reflexive Strength, Power and Reactivity: Oscillating Kinetic Energy Training with Inertia Wave™

www.just-fly-sports.com

Just fyi, i dont have any affiliation with this tool, just i really like it and am trying to figure out how to program it in the strongfirst way.

 

[Aziatik]

There's a lot of overlap. You are training effort---recovery---effort---recovery, and I'm sure you're using all 3 energy systems, as does A+A. Perhaps not emphasizing alactic and aerobic quite as much... and perhaps a bit more glycolysis... but really, in terms of energy systems, there is a lot in common. And you go on for a while, so that is a fairly large energy demand in total. And your HR indicates that you are working hard during the work intervals.

As for the other adaptations, it depends on to what degree the activity uses fast twitch vs. slow twitch muscle fiber, the degree of acidity you build in the intervals, how much fatigue you induce, what the target muscles are... etc.

And maybe you mean cardiorespiratory adaptations? In that case, I would say what you are doing is just as good, and probably better, than A+A.

Thank you!