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Other/Mixed Isometric, tension and muscle control

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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pet' said:
Hello,

I think this thread and its title match well with this book I have just figured out:
Eugen Sandow's "System of Physical Training".
Below is a link with a .pdf version of it:
Sandow's System of Physical Training

When learn among other things that E. Sandow used to train with both very light and very heavy weights.

For the light ones, he used full tension techniques with very high rep set. The idea he had here is to create a muscle / CNS connection. Thus, even while training light, it is possible if required, to lift heavy. He put a great focus on technique and stance and good relaxation between exercises. He also explained that failure must be avoided but we can for some exercise go to "max - 1".

He also talks about diet and general health. He was quite in advance actually.

Hope you will enjoy this "old school" strength book.

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...

Do you have an uptodate link for the Sandow book. I only found it on Amazon and want a PDF.
 
PaulAtreides said:
dude, it's literally the first google search result when you type "Sandow's System of Physical Training". ROFL

anyways here you go. http://dandmlifting.weebly.com/uploads/5/1/2/5/5125250/sandow_physical_training.pdf
this one looks more visual though: Sandow's System of Physical Training

thanks for making me search it, looks like a fine read ;)
Click to expand...

I wasn't sure if it was someone writing about Sandow's system or the right book by Sandow. Seems to be slightly different editions of the same content though. The first chapter section is the same title.
 
guardian7 said:
I wasn't sure if it was someone writing about Sandow's system or the right book by Sandow. Seems to be slightly different editions of the same content though. The first chapter section is the same title.
Click to expand...
That was my initial thought as well, but then I read "edited by Eugene Sandow", saw when it was published, and that it seems to have all the images. decided it seems legit.
 
Not sure how relevent it is, but I recall S Maxwell stating that longer duration iso exertions resulted in greater ROM adaptation. Where most short duration iso translates to about 20 degrees ROM from the exertion angle, contractions of approx 30 seconds increase strength for the entire ROM.
I don't know where he was sourcing that info.
 
Have been doing some Iso-inspired work lately, mostly to help heal a nagging elbow pain, and remembered this thread. Have come up with very small ROM isometric series that seems to be working very well.

Observations:
Even w/ a lot of effort, physical recovery is very rapid. There is very little pump or feeling of depleted reserves. Effort does not match with a traditional breath per rep exertion.

Have experienced some notable "pump"/compensation when doing off-day HIIT with jumprope that was not common when pairing it with sandbag work. Almost as if the conditions were established with the Iso and the jumprope provided the missing catalyst.

What I've settled on for now is a hybrid of Iso, Dynamic Tension (Atlas!?) and a dash of Isotonic.

I'm committed to doing this exclusively till my elbow feels close to 100%, probably another month or two.

Here's a quick look at the current experiment, structure is a basic interval 25sec on/35sec off, right/left upper, right/left lower and recycle two of the leg variations to flesh it out. A 7-8 ft x2ft piece of canvas is the only equipment aside from the jumprope.

 
North Coast Miller said:
Have been doing some Iso-inspired work lately, mostly to help heal a nagging elbow pain, and remembered this thread. Have come up with very small ROM isometric series that seems to be working very well.

Observations:
Even w/ a lot of effort, physical recovery is very rapid. There is very little pump or feeling of depleted reserves. Effort does not match with a traditional breath per rep exertion.

Have experienced some notable "pump"/compensation when doing off-day HIIT with jumprope that was not common when pairing it with sandbag work. Almost as if the conditions were established with the Iso and the jumprope provided the missing catalyst.

What I've settled on for now is a hybrid of Iso, Dynamic Tension (Atlas!?) and a dash of Isotonic.

I'm committed to doing this exclusively till my elbow feels close to 100%, probably another month or two.

Here's a quick look at the current experiment, structure is a basic interval 25sec on/35sec off, right/left upper, right/left lower and recycle two of the leg variations to flesh it out. A 7-8 ft x2ft piece of canvas is the only equipment aside from the jumprope.

Click to expand...


Interesting.

Just like the physical culture community has benefitted from unearthing and better understanding old time strongman techniques, it seems it would be worth digging into traditional martials to learn more about isometrics. Simply clasping your hands and resisting is a traditional Kung Fu exercise. Isometric Exercises - Instructions - Black Belt Wiki

There are also many types of full tension movements like Sanchin in Okinawan Karate. Hardstyle developed using Karate concepts.

Here is a kung fu example. Imagine a hardstyle plank but rotating through full tension holds throughout the body as I mentioned in a previous post.
 
Hello,

Bob Hoffman was a great believer of isometric training.

Based on what I remember - so it has to to checked then - he suggested to pick up a lift (squat, deadlift, ovh press, whatever) and then hitting a few holds with maximal tension. However, this is done at several angles, to be sure the strength can be applied to the entire ROM once we perform the normal lift.

For instance, if we consider the DL, it would be done, a few degrees after the bottom position, then a about the middle position, then a few degrees about the top position. Indeed, the strength transfer is about 35° (in + and in -from the hold).

Below are a few interesting readings regarding the topic:
Isometrics for Mass! | T Nation (mainly hypertrophy but also provides the required content to build a stand alone strength program)
Isometric Exercises That Work! | T Nation This article is more likely to be an addition to an already existing program)
The Lost Training Method | T Nation (G. Pendlay's article about isometrics and its application)

Then comes the quasi-isometric training:
QI: The Russian Training Secret | T Nation (presented as a finisher)
The Official Steve Maxwell Website (presented as a stand alone strength program)
Of course, there is the slow-twitch serie on SF.

Charles Atlas's Dynamic Tension book remains excellent source of information as well, because it gives an entire program.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
guardian7 said:
Interesting.

Just like the physical culture community has benefitted from unearthing and better understanding old time strongman techniques, it seems it would be worth digging into traditional martials to learn more about isometrics. Simply clasping your hands and resisting is a traditional Kung Fu exercise. Isometric Exercises - Instructions - Black Belt Wiki

There are also many types of full tension movements like Sanchin in Okinawan Karate. Hardstyle developed using Karate concepts.

Here is a kung fu example. Imagine a hardstyle plank but rotating through full tension holds throughout the body as I mentioned in a previous post.
Click to expand...


My first MA instructor introduced me to isometrics that actually worked, and another buddy who helped me along with Muay Thai showed me a few more. I of course experimented with some Atlas type iso working against the opposing limb and have had good success with doing that sort of work with a leash while jogging w/ my dog - not really iso as I would move the limbs back and forth as I ran. I also used them for punch and kick mechanics by working them at the start and contact phase of each respectively. But never really tried to use them exclusively or for whole body.

I did find that fighting yourself using Dynamic Tension had limitations when it came to telling just how much effort was being put forth - a big reason why I was pretty stoked to figure out how to work it against my support leg. It has so much more power and leverage it is no contest, much easier to tell if I'm hitting MVC and keep me honest longer.

Looking forward to seeing how these play out over time. It is definitely helping heal up my elbow.
 
pet' said:
Hello,

Bob Hoffman was a great believer of isometric training.

Based on what I remember - so it has to to checked then - he suggested to pick up a lift (squat, deadlift, ovh press, whatever) and then hitting a few holds with maximal tension. However, this is done at several angles, to be sure the strength can be applied to the entire ROM once we perform the normal lift.

For instance, if we consider the DL, it would be done, a few degrees after the bottom position, then a about the middle position, then a few degrees about the top position. Indeed, the strength transfer is about 35° (in + and in -from the hold).

Below are a few interesting readings regarding the topic:
Isometrics for Mass! | T Nation (mainly hypertrophy but also provides the required content to build a stand alone strength program)
Isometric Exercises That Work! | T Nation This article is more likely to be an addition to an already existing program)
The Lost Training Method | T Nation (G. Pendlay's article about isometrics and its application)

Then comes the quasi-isometric training:
QI: The Russian Training Secret | T Nation (presented as a finisher)
The Official Steve Maxwell Website (presented as a stand alone strength program)
Of course, there is the slow-twitch serie on SF.

Charles Atlas's Dynamic Tension book remains excellent source of information as well, because it gives an entire program.

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...

Good stuff! I hadn't seen the Pendlay article before.
 
Hello,

@North Coast Miller
Regarding the legs, getting into squat position a little bit higher than the bottom and hold for 15s, then the same in the middle, then the same just before the top.

During all the process, this is important to maintain a straight back position. We sometimes do that in boxing.

Otherwise, old-timer boxers used to do a lot of wall-sits.

Besides, both options are easily doable using GTG.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
pet' said:
Hello,

@North Coast Miller
Regarding the legs, getting into squat position a little bit higher than the bottom and hold for 15s, then the same in the middle, then the same just before the top.

During all the process, this is important to maintain a straight back position. We sometimes do that in boxing.

Otherwise, old-timer boxers used to do a lot of wall-sits.

Besides, both options are easily doable using GTG.

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...


I may revisit the choice of leg work. Started out using the movement patterns from a Good Morning and Squat, but had a tough time feeling like I was getting the same challenge as I might if doing them with an external load. The method I adopted seems to be hitting all the important stuff and has the ability to overload via the support leg.

Wall sits are definitely another option. I probably should be including unloaded jumping squat and broadjump as well, but for now tinkering with all Iso and jumprope on off days.
 
pet' said:
Hello,

Bob Hoffman was a great believer of isometric training.

Based on what I remember - so it has to to checked then - he suggested to pick up a lift (squat, deadlift, ovh press, whatever) and then hitting a few holds with maximal tension. However, this is done at several angles, to be sure the strength can be applied to the entire ROM once we perform the normal lift.

For instance, if we consider the DL, it would be done, a few degrees after the bottom position, then a about the middle position, then a few degrees about the top position. Indeed, the strength transfer is about 35° (in + and in -from the hold).

Below are a few interesting readings regarding the topic:
Isometrics for Mass! | T Nation (mainly hypertrophy but also provides the required content to build a stand alone strength program)
Isometric Exercises That Work! | T Nation This article is more likely to be an addition to an already existing program)
The Lost Training Method | T Nation (G. Pendlay's article about isometrics and its application)

Then comes the quasi-isometric training:
QI: The Russian Training Secret | T Nation (presented as a finisher)
The Official Steve Maxwell Website (presented as a stand alone strength program)
Of course, there is the slow-twitch serie on SF.

Charles Atlas's Dynamic Tension book remains excellent source of information as well, because it gives an entire program.

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...

Great resources Bob. A couple new to me. That QI article is one of the most intriguing articles I have read. I tried it a while ago and it is REALLY difficult. I think normal up and slow down would be a good compromise, gradually decreasing the speed over time. This would seem to cover all the bases. I did the barbell user course today and it was a lot easier than I remember even without me doing barbells for a while. I put it down to grip work, isometrics, and loaded carries. Very encouraging.
 
North Coast Miller said:
My first MA instructor introduced me to isometrics that actually worked, and another buddy who helped me along with Muay Thai showed me a few more. I of course experimented with some Atlas type iso working against the opposing limb and have had good success with doing that sort of work with a leash while jogging w/ my dog - not really iso as I would move the limbs back and forth as I ran. I also used them for punch and kick mechanics by working them at the start and contact phase of each respectively. But never really tried to use them exclusively or for whole body.

I did find that fighting yourself using Dynamic Tension had limitations when it came to telling just how much effort was being put forth - a big reason why I was pretty stoked to figure out how to work it against my support leg. It has so much more power and leverage it is no contest, much easier to tell if I'm hitting MVC and keep me honest longer.

Looking forward to seeing how these play out over time. It is definitely helping heal up my elbow.
Click to expand...

I did the SF barbell user course today and one of the suggested techniques was to load up a bar with a weight you can't possibly lift and then just go at it with maximum tension for ten seconds or whatever. Trains the nervous system for max efforts and provides tension practice under safe conditions.
 
Hello,

@guardian7
Here is a protocol from one of the reference in strength teaching, C. Poliquin. In this case, this is about some kind of functional hypertrophy, by toying with the eccentric and concentric time.
Mass That Works – Build Some Functional Hypertrophy - STRENGTH SENSEI

I tested it myself for while. Indeed, I gain some hypertrophy but no that much mass. In all cases, mass and hypertrophy are strongly related to food intake and require - at least to a certain extent if serious results are chased - some calorie surplus.

@North Coast Miller
I totally agree. For some move, this is quite difficult to notice if one is really putting the maximal tension. Or let's say this is harder for some muscles.
J.A.M. Rojas dived into muscle control quite deeply, based on modern science but also the based on the teaching of Max Sick. Some teachings are extremely powerful. The fact is that there is not real "protocol". Basically, it requires a full reading, then exercise selection, then sets / reps / time, based on the explanation.

The great positive thing about this kind of practice is that it implies a total focus. If there is no mental aspect - kind of martial art - the method is not going to work at all. It gives a very accurate muscle control. I used it alongside a Bent Press program I designed a while ago. It works wonderfully. Basically, this is almost the Pavel's reverse: contracting the bare minimum to save energy. It applies in weightlifting, but in martial art as well.

When I see your avatar on the forum, I notice that you are extremely "ripped" (but I know you are as strong as you look). By the way, I'd like to be the same way ! I think this method can interest you then, because with proper nutrition (this is also described in the book), you can be both strong and bulky (but not fat !), the sustainable way.

Below is a link where you can download the book for free.
Philosophy, Science and Practice of MAXALDING - Book Summary - United Kingdom Philosophy - Juan Antonio Martínez Rojas - Docsity

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
pet' said:
Hello,

@guardian7
Here is a protocol from one of the reference in strength teaching, C. Poliquin. In this case, this is about some kind of functional hypertrophy, by toying with the eccentric and concentric time.
Mass That Works – Build Some Functional Hypertrophy - STRENGTH SENSEI

I tested it myself for while. Indeed, I gain some hypertrophy but no that much mass. In all cases, mass and hypertrophy are strongly related to food intake and require - at least to a certain extent if serious results are chased - some calorie surplus.

@North Coast Miller
I totally agree. For some move, this is quite difficult to notice if one is really putting the maximal tension. Or let's say this is harder for some muscles.
J.A.M. Rojas dived into muscle control quite deeply, based on modern science but also the based on the teaching of Max Sick. Some teachings are extremely powerful. The fact is that there is not real "protocol". Basically, it requires a full reading, then exercise selection, then sets / reps / time, based on the explanation.

The great positive thing about this kind of practice is that it implies a total focus. If there is no mental aspect - kind of martial art - the method is not going to work at all. It gives a very accurate muscle control. I used it alongside a Bent Press program I designed a while ago. It works wonderfully. Basically, this is almost the Pavel's reverse: contracting the bare minimum to save energy. It applies in weightlifting, but in martial art as well.

When I see your avatar on the forum, I notice that you are extremely "ripped" (but I know you are as strong as you look). By the way, I'd like to be the same way ! I think this method can interest you then, because with proper nutrition (this is also described in the book), you can be both strong and bulky (but not fat !), the sustainable way.

Below is a link where you can download the book for free.
Philosophy, Science and Practice of MAXALDING - Book Summary - United Kingdom Philosophy - Juan Antonio Martínez Rojas - Docsity

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...

Great link again! I'll have to print it when I'm back at work tomorrow.

Aside from healing my elbow I'm very curious if Iso can provide similar mechanical loading adaptations one gets from RepMax type work. I realize the muscle adaptive response is limited somewhat to the angles trained, but the insertion and attachment points still see a great deal of strain and don't respond the same way.

I'd like to see an improvement in rapid loading/rapid stressing of the connective tissue - one of the things that is definitely declining as I age irrespective of loading patterns.

I'm also into the ripped appearance but a lot of that is just liking to keep BF to a minimum, and a habit of training a wide range of rep and loading. I also find it an increasing challenge to maintain as I age, so I can meet it or allow myself to become less ripped - not a choice at all and is forcing me to understand some dynamics better than I did when I was younger.

The Iso is one part of this experiment and the other is to see what the flipside of the coin does in conjunction - low volume HIIT with jumprope. Despite maybe being known for defending Glycolytic range work, I don't do a ton of metcon and the rest of it falls under TUT, often in conjunction with higher repmax loads - more traditional HIT than Crossfit by a large margin. SO whatever I do at high intensity is balanced by lower volume/more recovery.

I'm sure I'm going to decline in some respects, but am very interested in what 8-12 weeks does to body comp, ability to exert in real world, and what adhering to strict HIIT protocol does for endurance (and whether it also plays a role in body comp - it should). Given that Iso has such a low metabolic pricetag, it should pair very well with the HIIT.

The Iso work doesn't seem like it can be defined by TUT, rep max etc, very strange stuff to someone who is used to exerting in repetitions. But that is one of the things that make up specificity and real world exertion - it doesn't happen in reps.
 
pet' said:
Hello,

@North Coast Miller
Steven Low has an excellent understanding of isometric, especially as far as strength is concerned. He uses it for gymnastics, but it remains true as it is quite functional anyway:
The Fundamentals of Bodyweight Strength Training

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...

Another great link!

The decreased leverage he speaks of is the cornerstone of my Hobo/offset pole exercises - that sort of work by default really drags in the core component - forces it really.

It can be hard on some of the joints though. I hurt my elbow doing my day to day, but no matter how I tried to work around it, just wasn't having it. Am very happy the current selection is fitting that requirement.
 
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