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Kettlebell KB’s and Marathon Training

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Markoid

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I’ve got a nice collection of KB’s gathering dust. I’ve neglected them since I started running 5 years ago. After a string of injuries and guessing I’m not as strong as I used to be. Injuries: glute, hamstring, soleous.

I’ll be entering into another marathon cycle in February 2020, prior to that I what to gain some strength to try and prevent further lower body injuries.

What programmes have other runners had success with? I was thinking of starting a S&S cycle and when I start marathon training next year, maybe just plan in 1/2 S&S workouts a week - with a maintenance weight; if I get to 24kg, maybe drop to 12kg; to avoid overcooking myself.

I do have some strength and mobility programme stuff I can do, but it just seems to be to minimal(?) - Clams, hydrants, side raises, planks etc.
 
I’ve got a nice collection of KB’s gathering dust. I’ve neglected them since I started running 5 years ago. After a string of injuries and guessing I’m not as strong as I used to be. Injuries: glute, hamstring, soleous.

I’ll be entering into another marathon cycle in February 2020, prior to that I what to gain some strength to try and prevent further lower body injuries.

What programmes have other runners had success with? I was thinking of starting a S&S cycle and when I start marathon training next year, maybe just plan in 1/2 S&S workouts a week - with a maintenance weight; if I get to 24kg, maybe drop to 12kg; to avoid overcooking myself.

I do have some strength and mobility programme stuff I can do, but it just seems to be to minimal(?) - Clams, hydrants, side raises, planks etc.
S&S is pretty decent supportive work for many endeavors; running included.
Read: 'Training for the Uphill Athlete' if you want specifics geared to LD runners (even if Marathons are relatively short...)
 
Browse around a bit, there are other, similar threads about combining strength and endurance training.

I’ve done plenty of off road training and racing, MTB, trail runs, XTERRA. What I’ve found works best is either:

High frequency, low volume, low intensity, like SfS, the DMPM, or Easy Strength. I like ES in the gym, or the DMPM with a KB in the park.

OR, a higher volume and intensity routine done twice a week, like Tactical Barbell Fighter.

Now is a good time to work on those strength issues for a few weeks before hitting a dedicated plan. That’s what I’m doing.
 
I’ve got a nice collection of KB’s gathering dust. I’ve neglected them since I started running 5 years ago. After a string of injuries and guessing I’m not as strong as I used to be. Injuries: glute, hamstring, soleous.

I’ll be entering into another marathon cycle in February 2020, prior to that I what to gain some strength to try and prevent further lower body injuries.

What programmes have other runners had success with? I was thinking of starting a S&S cycle and when I start marathon training next year, maybe just plan in 1/2 S&S workouts a week - with a maintenance weight; if I get to 24kg, maybe drop to 12kg; to avoid overcooking myself.

I do have some strength and mobility programme stuff I can do, but it just seems to be to minimal(?) - Clams, hydrants, side raises, planks etc.

S&S is a good choice, so is A+A snatching
 
@Markoid and @TMRowlett
During preparation for my third marathon, I ran a lot less than during preparations for my first two marathons due to an injury that I got right at the start of training season. Looking for activities that wouldn’t aggravate the injury, I turned to kettlebells and rowing machines quite a bit, even on days the training plan called for running. While my finishing time wasn’t earth-shattering, it was faster than either of my previous two marathons. I suspect that kettlebells and rowing agreed with me more than all of the junk miles I ran while preparing for my first two marathons. So many marathon training programs are based on run, run, run, but there are other ways......
 
I’ve got a nice collection of KB’s gathering dust. I’ve neglected them since I started running 5 years ago. After a string of injuries and guessing I’m not as strong as I used to be. Injuries: glute, hamstring, soleous.

I’ll be entering into another marathon cycle in February 2020, prior to that I what to gain some strength to try and prevent further lower body injuries.

What programmes have other runners had success with? I was thinking of starting a S&S cycle and when I start marathon training next year, maybe just plan in 1/2 S&S workouts a week - with a maintenance weight; if I get to 24kg, maybe drop to 12kg; to avoid overcooking myself.

I do have some strength and mobility programme stuff I can do, but it just seems to be to minimal(?) - Clams, hydrants, side raises, planks etc.
I started to train for half-marathon and asked advice from @Harald Motz and he said that basically everything recent from Pavel will serve very well for that goal(s&s,a+a work or q&d).
 
Based on some endurance related threads here lately, I'm beginning to think there are no "junk" miles, a term I'm hating more and more.

I agree with you that junk miles is not a great term, in spite of the fact that I used that term. When I use the term junk miles to describe parts of my own running history, I am referring to miles run with poor form for the sake of getting miles in, even if the poor form increased injury. I suppose I should find a better term to use than junk miles
 
Yes! And I would even like extend this to say that the problem with those miles is that they are too fast, not that they are too slow.

As I indicated in my response to vegpedir, I recognize my use of the term junk miles was imperfect. And for myself, my most injury-prone miles were not the result of me going fast or going slow, but were the result of my running on autopilot with bad form. I suppose some runners are more likely to go on bad autopilot running fast, some runners are more likely to go on bad autopilot running slow, and some runners can have the problem regardless of speed. These days, I find my most mindful running while doing quarter mile sprint intervals, but I recognize different runners can be mindful at all different speeds and distances. Peace.
 
Yes! And I would even like extend this to say that the problem with those miles is that they are too fast, not that they are too slow.
Exactly. The gray zone of intensity is junkier than low intensity volume.

I define "junk" miles as miles that don't have a purpose. Low intensity volume has a purpose, but I think it's lost on many folks.
 
Agreed...!
'Junk Miles' are the ones that aren't performed at the correct intensity for the purpose. Typically ZR and Z1 are not junk miles in my book; but rather the critical foundation building zones.
 
@Markoid, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

A few thoughts for you, in no particular order, based on what you've said and what others have said as well in this thread.

IMO, junk miles, and junk reps, do exist, both for running and lifting weights. One of the things I feel differentiates me as a StrongFirst Certified Instructor from other instructors is my willingness to introduce weights that others might consider "heavy" because I know, once a good understanding of a movement exists and has been practiced with a light weight, there is often a "right" weight that will teach things to a student that often don't get learned any other way.

Put another way, the ability to maintain good form at a lighter weight or a slower running pace is often something more suited to an intermediate or advanced athlete. So my usual teaching order is to begin everything new with a light weight, but to move toward that "right" weight as quickly as safety and good judgement on my part will allow.

When I was a distance runner, I was very impressed by "Running Formula" by Dr. Jack Daniels and I continue to recommend this book. In it, based on recent race performances, Daniels recommends very specific training paces to target very specific things, and doesn't recommend any training in any in-between zones. Following his guidance, I managed to avoid what had been chronic overtraining on my part, and set a lifetime PR at 5k for myself at age 45. (And I'll note that my training also included lifting weights.)

Allow me to second @Brett Jones' suggestion of working with a StrongFirst certified instructor and having an FMS done. Good guidance can be priceless in setting you on a path to progress with minimal risk of injury.

-S-
 
If your only looking at filling January before your Marathon cycle starts I would call it a GPP phase and look at an S&S approach... I think Q&D or A+A probably fit better towards goal specific training. Not sure how far out you are looking for your Marathon cycle to last but I'd say just build strength (likely to add a couple of pounds of muscle but not deliberately build mass) and then continue later with strength training tailored more closely to the specific goal.

I've seen sources that recommend the dip as 'the best strength move for runners' and Pavel specifies in Q&D that it's an ideal move for that program but wasn't selected as not everyone has easy access to dip bars. I know there are posts here somewhere about proper form on dips- they have a reputation for leading to injury but it seems that technique (and the spacing of the bars) are more important then people generally credit. Given the overlap in the recommendation for Q&D and for runner's specifically that could be a great thing to use in a sport specific phase.

There's some great advice in here on strengthening for running as well: Tendons and Sinews with Keith Baar, PhD — SCIENCE OF ULTRA
 
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