Kettlebell KB ballistics for CPI

[Pasibrzuch]

Hey everyone,
I know SF forum is lazy-endurance oriented place (which I love!). However, has anyone experience with using kettlebell ballistics for cardiac power intervals?

If you're unfamiliar with CPI training is going Max HR for 60-120sec and then resting 2-5 minutes or to the HR of 120bpm. The purpose of such protocol is

an increase in how much blood the heart can pump (...) by increasing how forcefully the heart can contract with each beat.

. The quote comes from Joel Jamieson's in "Ultimate MMA Conditioning", where CPI is defined as an aerobic method which slightly confuses me because I associated intervals of this format with glycolitic training. Does anyone have experience with this type of work?

If yes, is there any superior exercise when it comes to achieving maximum heart rate? I've never used a HR monitor, but intuitively snatches sound like a sound choice for this purpose.

Would it make sense to create a purely aerobic program where you do CPI 2x week, LSD two times a week and exercises for slow twitch fiber hypertrophy 2x week?

Or am I trying to hard to marry kettlebells with CPI and doing some heavy bag/sprinting instead would be better?

 

[Sauli]

Dbl kettlebell clean and jerk, one arm snatch and swings could work for that kinda protocol. Actually gs athletes do lots of that kinda protocols where they go with high pace with these "short" intervals. And naturally they also do longer sets, but then they usually pace their sets or use much lighter bells.
I think I'd use perhaps one cpi, one a+a and some lsd if endurance would be my main goal. And it really depends what kinda endurance effort is your goal.

 

[Gravytrain]

FWIW I tried Joel’s philosophy fairly strictly and saw no real benefit to my conditioning for grappling.

even hired him to write programs for me.

His mma athletes are no better conditioned than their competitors while having different approaches to conditioning

He has some good ideas, no doubt.

I’ve seen MUCH greater success in my “conditioning ” doing things such as S&S and Q&D and just grappling. Fwiw

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

has anyone experience with using kettlebell ballistics for cardiac power intervals?

If you're unfamiliar with CPI training is going Max HR for 60-120sec and then resting 2-5 minutes or to the HR of 120bpm. The purpose of such protocol is

an increase in how much blood the heart can pump (...) by increasing how forcefully the heart can contract with each beat.

High Intensity Interval Resistance Training

This method is the resistance method of High Intensity Interval Training.

Instead of performing a short sprints, short resistance training is employed instead.

Cardiovascular training with HIIRT and HIIT elicit the same effect.

This method also will "increase in how much blood the heart can pump (...) by increasing how forcefully the heart can contract with each beat."

Not A Fan of 60 to 120 Seconds

This method provides a different training effect comparative to shorter High Intensity Interval Resistance Training, in which sets are limited to 20 second or less.

Sets which limit the work time to 20 second allow you to handle greater loads in the Phosphagen Energy System; where Limit Strength and Power are built.

Short 20 second or less work period. allow for a heavier load to be used. Using a heavier load drive heart rate up.

A series of 20 second High Intensity Interval Resistance Training Set can drive your heart rate up to 100% more of your estimated Heart Rate Max.

Research of Repetitive Sets of 20 seconds have demonstrated to improved V02max by as well as anaerobic capacity.

Performing a set of sets for 60 to 120 seconds falls into the Glycolytic Energy System , as you stated. It is more in the category of Endurance and Hypertrophy Training. Endurance is produce at the expense of Limit Strength and Power; anaerobic capacity decreases with this approach.

...is there any superior exercise when it comes to achieving maximum heart rate?

HIIT and HIIRT

These method of all out brief "Sprints" will drive your heart rate through the roof. To reiterate, it not uncommon for someone to hit 100% or higher of their projected Heart Rate Max estimate.

but intuitively snatches sound like a sound choice for this purpose.

High Repetition Snatches

Yes, High Repetition Snatches for 60 plus seconds will drive you heart rate up.

CrossFit often uses Olympic Movement to elicit the same response; High Intensity Interval Resistance Training as a means of driving heart rate up.

The Downside

The downside in performing any high repetition movement, especially one the requires more technique finesse is that muscle fatigue set in.

As muscle fatigue sets in, technique and the muscle firing sequence in the movement is altered. The exercise is modified and change to something completely different.

That means your end up reinforcing poor technique.

Would it make sense to create a purely aerobic program where you do CPI 2x week, LSD two times a week and exercises for slow twitch fiber hypertrophy 2x week?

CPI 2X Week

Give it a try and see for yourself.

Slow Twitch Hypertrophy Training

Fast Twitch Hypertrophy Training produce greater increases in muscle mass.

Very little hypertrophy is developed with Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber. If did, marathon runners would be massive.

While some Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber Hypertrophy will occur, it's a poor investment of training time.

Think of it like making money.

The "Fast Twitch Bank" will pay you an interest rate of let's say 10%.

The "Slow Twitch Bank" will pay you let's say and interest rate of about 3%.

Which "Bank" do you want put your money in?

Or am I trying to hard to marry kettlebells with CPI and doing some heavy bag/sprinting instead would be better?

"It really depends on what kinda endurance effort is your goal." Sauli

As Sauli said, it depends on what your objective is.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Anna C]

Interesting topic... I have Joel Jamieson's Ultimate MMA Conditioning, not that I know anything at all about MMA, but I bought it because Joel is good at explaining things about energy systems and targeting training methods for different adaptations.

Also interesting to reference what he says in light of Pavel's recent work that I've learned at Strong Endurance and Second Wind seminars and is provided in the Quick and the Dead and the updated S&S book. The overall method from Pavel is: yes this is effective, but should be used sparingly and for specific purposes or at specific times, not as a general training method due to the biological cost -- acidocis, free radical damage, increased stress, fatigue resulting in poor movement, etc.

I think certain kettlebell exercises can work for what Joel describes as the 60-120 second CPI. Some glycolytic peaking I've done with kettlebell snatches prior to the TSC meet are pretty much that: snatches at "race pace" for 2 minutes will usually max out the heart rate. Rest for a few minutes. Repeat a few times. It is effective for increasing the work you can do with a max 5 minute effort. What I don't know is if a couple of weeks of this (5 or 6 sessions total, as I did for the peaking) is enough to actually affect cardiac output. I suspect it's more about other adaptations.

CPI is defined as an aerobic method which slightly confuses me because I associated intervals of this format with glycolitic training

Yes it is glycolytic, but this type of training is actually maxing out all of the energy systems at one time, so it is training aspects of the aerobic system -- specifically, cardiac output which improves its ability to deliver oxygen to the tissues. When we talk about energy systems training methods, it's often not clarified that a certain energy system is "targeted" as an adaptation (like this one -- targets one aspect, but may be training other things at the same time) vs. selected to exclude the others as much as possible, such as A+A (alactic and aerobic), or LSD (log slow distance, for aerobic only).

 

[Pasibrzuch]

Slow Twitch Hypertrophy Training

Fast Twitch Hypertrophy Training produce greater increases in muscle mass.

Very little hypertrophy is developed with Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber. If did, marathon runners would be massive.

While some Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber Hypertrophy will occur, it's a poor investment of training time.

Think of it like making money.

The "Fast Twitch Bank" will pay you an interest rate of let's say 10%.

The "Slow Twitch Bank" will pay you let's say and interest rate of about 3%.

Which "Bank" do you want put your money in?

I'm a little bit confused now. In the aforementioned book it is said that slow twitch fibers prevent fatigue from anaerobic metabolism. As I stated above, the point of the hypothetical program would be improving aerobic capacity.
And, purely anecdotal, but I did one cycle of Six Week to Strong (Six Weeks to Strong: The SF 930 Plan | StrongFirst) which focuses on slow twitch fibers. Not only did it benefit my strength tremendously (from a lousy 32kg OA Press with my stronger hand I went to strict 2x32kg for both hands) but also my endurance during muay thai trainings was great.

Yes it is glycolytic, but this type of training is actually maxing out all of the energy systems at one time, so it is training aspects of the aerobic system -- specifically, cardiac output which improves its ability to deliver oxygen to the tissues. When we talk about energy systems training methods, it's often not clarified that a certain energy system is "targeted" as an adaptation (like this one -- targets one aspect, but may be training other things at the same time) vs. selected to exclude the others as much as possible(.)

@Anna C , that's a great explanation! Never thought about it this way.
Taking this and other comments into consideration I think I will be better off when staying minimalist and alternate S&S with Q&D, maybe SixWeeksToStrong once a year + one LSD run a week. CPI sound like too strong a stressor and I have enough glycolitic work during my muay thai sessions.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

...slow twitch fibers prevent fatigue from anaerobic metabolism.

.

This statement doesn't make sense. An increase in aerobic capacity/Slow Twitch muscle fiber does not prevent fatigue with anaerobic Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Aerobic Training for Anaerobic Recovery

With that said, employing a limited amount of aerobic training enhances recovery with anaerobic sport.

If too much aerobic training is performed, a decrease in recovery occurs. It decreases Limit Strength, Power and Speed.

High Intensity Interval Training and High Intensity Interval Resistance Training

The benefit of this approach is it increases aerobic and anaerobic capacity; making it a paradox. It elicit two different responses at the same time.

High Intensity Training - Horizon: The Truth About Exercise - BBC Two


Dr Jamie Timmons' determined a High Intensity Interval Training Program with three 20 second all out sprints with 2 minute rest period between each sprint were effective.

And, purely anecdotal, but I did one cycle of Six Week to Strong (Six Weeks to Strong: The SF 930 Plan | StrongFirst) which focuses on slow twitch fibers. Not only did it benefit my strength tremendously (from a lousy 32kg OA Press with my stronger hand I went to strict 2x32kg for both hands) but also my endurance during muay thai trainings was great.

Increasing Strength

Resistance Training will increase Limit Strength with a Strength-Endurance Training Program.

However, the amount of Limit Strength with Strength-Endurance will be substantially less than one that focuses on 1 Repetition Max Training.

Increasing Endurance

Performing an exercise non-stop for 60 - 120 seconds increases aerobic capacity, like Muay Thai.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Anna C]

An increase in aerobic capacity/Slow Twitch muscle fiber does not prevent fatigue with anaerobic Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

I think it's meant indirectly. The stronger and enduring one's slow-twitch fibers are, the less one has to rely on their fast twitch anaerobic fibers to get the same amount of work done in something like an MMA fight.

Dr Jamie Timmons' determined a High Intensity Interval Training Program with three 20 second all out sprints with 2 minute rest period between each sprint were effective.

Pavel goes into some deep detail in "The Quick and the Dead" about what is going on metabolically with this type of training, and why it may be better in many ways to go with a shorter duration of intense effort.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I think it's meant indirectly.

I think means you are guessing.

The stronger and enduring one's slow-twitch fibers are, the less one has to rely on their fast twitch anaerobic fibers to get the same amount of work done in something like an MMA fight.

Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber

The issues is that the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are pretty much burned out in around 10 second with high intensity effort.

The Fast Twitch Muscle, as you know, are involve in the Phosphagen Energy System. Energy in this system drop like a rock after 10 second and fall off the cliff at 30 plus seconds.

Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber

They are the first to be engaged in any movement. They are employed and work in low level intensity activities.

When a high intensity movement is required, the Fast Type IIa and then "Super" Fast Type IIb/x are engaged. They are shooting stars that burn out quickly.

Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber are brought back into play once Fast and "Super" Fast Muscle Fiber have been exhausted. Slow Twitch are incapable of capable of getting the same amount of work performed after a highly intense movement in MMA.

...it may be better in many ways to go with a shorter duration of intense effort.

Precisely

As the research shows, High Intensity Interval Training increases aerobic as well as anaerobic capacity. It's like a "Buy one get one free deal"; you are getting two for the price of one.

Not only that but a High Intensity Interval Training Program can be completed in 4 minutes (Tabata Protocol) or in approximately 7 minutes with Dr Jamie Timmons' High Intensity Interval Training Protocol (SupraMaximal Intensity Interval Training, SMIT. I am a SMIT proponent.

Secondly, High Intensity Interval Training is more in line with MMA. No one goes all out for 60 - 120 seconds in MMA.

MMA involves short highly intense exchanges follow by short rest "Tabata Protocol" type of interval training.

High Intensity Interval Training amount is a form of Cluster Sets. Short rest period taken between repetition in a set allow for ATP muscle restoration. Rest period of 10 second or longer allow you to produce more force.

Dr Jonathan Oliver Cluster Set Research Training

Oliver's research was based on find a way for athletes to increase muscle mass with Hypertrophy Training without a decrease in Limit Strength and Power.

Bodybuilding/Hypertrophy Training falls more into the area of endurance training. It increases muscle mass at the expense of a decrease in Limit Strength and Power.

Oliver found that Cluster Set with low repetition (less than 6) of Cluster Sets enabled athletes to maintain Power and Limit Strength while increasing muscle mass.

The key was that each repetition in each Cluster Set needed to be explosive. If power dropped off the set was terminated.

The drop in power indicated that the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber were exhausted.

Continuing to perform a movement once power dropped shifting it from being a Fast Twitch Training Program to a Slow Twitch Training Program; which defeated the objective of the training program.

Take Home Message

Higher Repetition Training promotes Strength-Endurance. Some strength is achieved with this method.

It can be used in a Conjugate Training Training Program as a means of increasing recovery.

However, it is contraindicated when performed alone or when performing too much in a training program. Power and Limit Strength is limited.

Brett Jones

"When I suggested ST hypertrophy to Master SFG Brett Jones, he politely declined."
Source: https://www.strongfirst.com/how-to-build-your-slow-fibers-part-iii/

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Anna C]

I think means you are guessing.

Yes, I was guessing at another author's intended meaning.

Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber are brought back into play once Fast and "Super" Fast Muscle Fiber have been exhausted.

I think this brings an image that is too simplistic, like light switches flipping. It's not really like that.

Because I'm a cyclist I tend to think of the effort on a road bike, but I think there are some correlations to other sports.

On the bike, I can cycle at 16 mph on a flat road for many hours. My heart rate would be about 120 bpm, my breathing nice and even and nasal, I could easily carry on a conversation, and I wouldn't need to consume carbohydrates. All of these things would suggest that almost all of my energy would be supplied by my aerobic energy system.

Conversely, I can do an all-out sprint on the bike for 20 seconds or so. Probably PCr (alactic) energy, and definitely fast twitch muscle fiber.

In the middle of these two extremes, I can do a lactate threshold ride at about 20 mph on a flat road for 20-30 minutes. My heart rate would be about 160 bpm, my breathing labored but steady, could not carry on a conversation, and could not maintain the effort without additional carb intake after 45 minutes or so. Which energy systems are being used? I would say the aerobic system is doing the maximum that it can do, and the glycolytic system is supplementing the remainder of the energy needs.

My average ride includes ALL of these extremes, actually. Some of it is easy aerobic, some of it involves a fast sprint up a hill (or down a hill, for fun and speed), some of it is a tempo interval lasting several minutes at a faster pace and HR. If I had very little slow-twitch fiber, a lot more of the effort on an average ride would be powered by fast twitch fiber.

The bigger my aerobic engine and slow-twitch fiber endurance and strength, the more of the overall effort can be aerobic. Couldn't the same thing be said for an MMA fight, or any other mixed effort event?