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Old Forum KB for fat loss, programmed reps, etc.

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DunteH

DunteH

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Data nerds, when you program swings & other KB goodies for fat loss clients/victims, do you have any numbers on total swing volume that gets the job done?

(Yes, nutrition is 70% of results, yes I coach it, yes lots of programs can work. But we're talking efficiency here.)

So, for example, volume around 200 swings per workout twice per week gets killer results? Or 500 x 3? Anyone with input here?

If there's no data for fat loss, how about general conditioning? Where's that 80% threshold where you get most of the improvements?

I'm not asking just  for my own nerdy purposes (though they are many!); I'm currently testing with my clients, but I don't have enough information yet to say much. The idea is to give them the minimum of intense training to get the metabolic improvements that we all love from high-rep training. Since the KB can build strength as readily as it provides useful cardio, I have every client get one instead of a neglected gym membership, which minimizes investment in equipment as well.
 
Dunte,

Research Bud Jeffries.He lost a ton of weight by merely doing lots of swings.Dont remember his exact program but it is worth looking into especially with your question.
 
In "I will be Iron", Bud Jeffries says he feels that fat burning really kicks in when you can do 500+ swings per session.

Tracy pushes the 300+ mark ...so somewhere in there is the butter zone. She also recommneds working up to longer intervals (1-2 minute sets) with decreased rest to kick start fat loss and maintain strength.
 
Sweet replies, thanks all. I've read and analyzed Tracy's workouts, which gave me some baselines. I'll dig into Bud Jeffries and do more testing.

My clients have been a little low (even after reasonable progression), and I felt that, but wanted to identify a target. On to testing!
 
2x a week I do 200+ Swing workouts. That along with 100-200 Snatch sessions once a week and Pressing I have been burning fat.
 
Loosely related: anyone remember what book or article Dan John talked about "quantifying recovery?" I'm about to begin a weight loss program that will involve losing a lot of muscle mass (about 30 pounds of it) and fighting to preserve strength, but will strongly need to monitor recovery for immune health, since I'll be in such a sustained catabolic state.
 
The 'fat-burn' swing sessions I program are very much dependent on the intensity previous training that week - I'll usually suggest using a few kettlebells and a lot of swing variations to preserve the grip (inspired by Tracy of course). I often do a periodic 4-week cycle of increasing volume usually before christmas and then again in April, building from 300 to 900 swings. The most we ever aimed for was 1200 in an hour (more advanced students).

1. 2H Swings (regular kettlebell weight): 10 every 30 seconds (so 15 work:15 rest) for 10 rounds (100) Rest 2 minutes

2. 2H Swings work into Rest (a la Tracy) (regular kettlebell weight): start each set on the 30 second mark going from 10 to 15 and back down to 10 (135)

3. Progression (equal work to rest): a) 10 2H Swings (15s:15s). b) 1 modified roundabout (my roundabout is 10 swings because I finish with 2 in the middle again) + 10 2H swings (30s:30s:). c) 20 1H swing - transfer + 10 2H swings (45:45s). d) 1 "decagon" (10 2H SW, 10 1H swing R, 10 2H Swing, 10 1H swing L) (60s:60s). Repeat 3 times. (400). Long rest here.

4. Hit the "Deck": I created a custom deck of kettlebell swing variations (& # of swings) to keep things interesting. I recommend having a lighter kb available to manage fatigue. I shuffle and flip a random card. Students enjoy the variation of not knowing what's coming up (and the fact that I don't know either - but note that do sometimes stack the deck depending on who's coming to manage the intensity.) I set my timer for 15s intervals and allow for equal rest (students are told to take MORE rest as needed and park the bell at any time they are not confident that their next swing will be at least as good as the one before). Go as long as good form prevails or time runs out.

Mmmmmm...haven't done that in a while... :)

Love it.

Martine

 
 
Don't go thinking that swings are the only way to burn fat with kettlebells.   Kettlebell Burn by master instructor Geoff Neupert works like a charm.  Train them as closely to the guidelines set forth in that ebook and fat loss happens.
 
Posted by Eric Moss

Kettlebell Burn by master instructor Geoff Neupert works like a charm. Train them as closely to the guidelines set forth in that ebook and fat loss happens.
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I don't have that, though I'll make a point to invest in it at my next book-buying round.
 
Posted by martine kerr

Hit the “Deck”: I created a custom deck of kettlebell swing variations (& # of swings) to keep things interesting. I recommend having a lighter kb available to manage fatigue. I shuffle and flip a random card.
Click to expand...

I like this. Clever and simple.
 
Dunte,

I don't know if there is a "minimum" threshold of Swings to burn fat that you can use as a line drawn in the ground. I get what you're saying about "efficiency" but if we drilled down, I think you're really looking for "minimum effective dose," (MED) which I don't think exists across the board, unless we are really broad and say "more" than what you're currently doing.

It all depends on the individual(s) in question:

- Their current strength levels - you'll be able to do more work the stronger you are. And the more work you can do, the more calories you can burn.

- Their fitness levels - you can be really strong AND really be out of shape - poor cardiovascular function and health. It won't take much for a "big" guy like this to start losing body fat.

- Their training backgrounds - If you've done A LOT of Swings, you're body is going to be more efficient at doing Swings than someone who's not - so there's going to be less of a training effect (fat loss) from doing them compared to a relative newbie. (One of my friends was doing 1500 Swings per training session and burning 1200 calories or more, but he's a VERY ADVANCED kettlebell user and he had STRICT guidelines in place for himself on how he performed those Swings, which brings me to the next point -

- How "tight" your technique is on each Swing - "hard" or "soft/loose" - big difference in energy expenditure

And like Eric pointed out (thanks, Eric) you can burn fat other ways than "just" Swings.

My favorite (personal and professional) way of going about fat loss is through some form of caloric restriction, using kettlebell grinds, and kettlebell ballistics.

Here are some other points to consider:

- Some people's MED might be as "little" as 10 minutes three times a week. This could be two completely different types of KB users too - beginners who can only tolerate that much or advanced who can really give it there all in those 10 minutes.Others may need as much as 45 minutes. It's hard to say, and again, I think it's all based on the person, their background, and ultimately how much they have to lose. Which brings me to the next point -

- How much fat does this person have to lose? We know that those who have lots of fat to lose can lose it at a rapid pace when placed on the right program. And those with that stubborn last 10 pounds most likely need a different strategy altogether.

Hopefully this helps.

 
 
Hey Geoff, thanks for chiming in! Every point there is solid and I agree. I could do a better job laying out my assumptions when asking this question.

How much fat does this person have to lose?
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For my clientele, that is nearly always 25+ pounds of fat. They are all rank beginners to strength training (and any consistent exercise, for that matter).

I tend to scale depending on results -- more density or additional work days or different work styles if results slow/stall -- but I'm starting to see their initial changes happen about 150-200 swings per workout, twice per week. My sample is tiny though (about 5 people), so I wondered about others' experience who have programmed the swing for more fat loss clients.

You are definitely right that I am asking about MED here, and specifically for the overweight, untrained beginner.

By the way, that 1500+ swing/session friend of yours is a real mutant!
 
I’m about to begin a weight loss program that will involve losing a lot of muscle mass (about 30 pounds of it)
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Please tell me why you would want to do this? Having been anywhere from 135 to 217 at 6' 1" and finally settling in around 180, I cringe at the idea of losing 30 lbs of muscle on purpose unless there's a tactical (weight class or other size restriction) reason for doing so. Not knocking the idea, just curious.

 

Thanks!
 
The "my friends don't get it" reason?  Simple self-experimentation, because I'm dorky that way.

Personal reasons? It was a real pain to eat enough to get to 200lb (6' tall) and I was previously (several years ago) comfortable at 171 as a wrestler. Also, my transition back into track will feel more natural to me lighter, my planche & lever training will feel easier, and my strength gains will feel more impressive -- I'll be more excited to press the Beast at 170 compared to doing so at 200.
 
Well we're not friends yet but I also don't get it, although I can appreciate the nerd factor in the experiment.  I know Geoff is the programming expert, so I'm interested in his reply.
 
Sorry if this is a silly question but I happen to LOVE swings and really enjoy long duration swing practice. Ive been wondering though is it possible to over do it? As long as weight and rep/rest range are varied is it alright to swing 4-5 days of the week?
 
@Dunte - Sounds like you're on the right track. Keep going with your experiment and let us know. As a rule, I like varying volume and density as well. I prefer increasing density, as this increases intensity, which seems to be what much of the fat loss research shows drives the fat loss.

@ Chrysta - Too much? Depends. Are you recovering between sessions? How do you know? Are you getting the results you're looking for? If not, it might be too much.
 
For my workouts, density is actually my primary variable, since I've imposed a specific limit on how much time I can spend training per week and, until proven otherwise, am concerned about recovery from higher weight/poorer leverage intensity increases. I prefer a more-in-less-time approach, by far anyway. What's odd is, until the last few weeks, I haven't really incorporated the training principles that got me where I wanted to be with my clients. Definitely been overthinking for a long time.

The criteria for this experiment are laid out here about half-way down, which will explain why there is a limit at all. For anyone interested in 91 short blog posts about this process, now through February 13, I'll be tracking some information daily about it at the same website.
 
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