Kettlebell Kettlebell "Squat Style" Swing

[Rif]

Kettlebell "Squat Style" Swing

This is a excellent Squat training movement. It places the workload on the quads, glutes and abdominals/core.

This movement simulates a Wide Stance Powerlifing movement.

Instead of the Hip Hinge movement in a traditional Kettlebell Swing; you sit (Squat down) back into the the movement as the bell drop back behind you.

You need to drop as low/Squat as you can in the movement.

The height of the Kettlebell squat Swing will be low, a little out in front of you. Basically, you will be standing up straight.

In finishing the swing, your head will be in around a 45 degree position; you looking down at the floor around 6 ft or so in front of you. This means...



You need to tuck your neck into your chest. Doing so, place more of the workload on the quads and glutes.

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

"In the squat style, the kettlebell sinks down more, the knees bend more, and the torso stays slightly more upright..."

Contreras research demonstrated slightly more "Peak Vertical Force" was produce with the Kettlebell Squat Swing than the traditional Hip Hinge.

However, due to the fact that you are Squatting into the movement the quads are going to be worked substantially more; this is a quad/butt pump movement.

"Problems With Kettlebell Research"
Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

As the article noted, most of the research has been performed with light rather than heavy Kettlebell Swings which "Aren't very meaningful".

Contreras' research demonstrated Heavy Kettlebell Swing (Squat and Hip Hinge) produce higher Power Output, greater force production.

Heavy Kettlebell Squat Swings

You need to use a fairly heavy bell with the Kettlebell Squat Swing as well as the traditional Hip Hinge Swing to maximize and develop Power.

Summary

The Kettlebell Squat Swing is an excellent movement for increasing quad, glute and abdominal/core strength.

The Kettlebells Squat Swing is a great Auxiliary Squat Exercise.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny

A squatty type swing does not simulate a wide stance power squat.In fact, just the opposite. A wide stance power squat , to quote Louie Simmons is a "good morning that breaks parallel"

The shins vertical, sitting back hinge, our classic HS KB swing, is much closer to a power squat than the squatty type swing.

A classic HS swing is about a forward projection of force. A squatty type swing would be useful for a vertical projection of force as in a GS snatch or a highland games weight for height movement


Also the 'scoop' on the GS swing and snatch most closely resembles the second pull of an Oly lift as much as anything

In our updated "athletic hinge" style of swinging just a bit of knee flexion is done to add power to an already powerful hinge movement not to turn it into a "quad exercise" or another movement entirely

 

[Rif]

You don't see the benefit

Again, I understand where you a coming from.

It hard to understand something you are unfamiliar with and haven't experimented with. Your mind appears to be made up.



Why

The same could be stated in regard to the Traditional Hip Hinge Kettlebell Swing for reps.

Repetitions in the Traditional Hip Hinge Kettlebell Swing burns out the hamstring and glutes; "you can but why-other than an burn in the hamstring and glutes?"

I don't see a burn in the legs in a Squat Style Kettlebell Swing nor the burn in the Traditional Hip Hinge Swing as a bad thing.

Research has demonstrated that "The Burn" provide an anabolic response. As Arnold said, "You can't grow without the burn".

Also, the Squat Style Swing amount to developing the Stretch Reflex in the Squat. It is an effective method of teaching the Wide Stance Squat.

Kenny Croxdale

The swing, in either style, is an athletic movement and not a bodybuilding technique so "going for the burn" is a very inefficient way of using this powerful movement

Trying training for the Sinister swing test, or Pavel's "wrestling a kettlebell" ( 100 hardstyle two hand swings non stop with the 48 kg) and see which technique delivers the most power and endurance and you'll have your answer

as for the stretch reflex in the squat style swing you are correct but it's in the quads and not the hips, not the seat of power that we're looking for. and again you seem to be confused with the technique of a true widestance power squat; the movement is back, not down as in an Oly squat

 

[Rif]

wide stance power squat

 

[Rif]

Generally speaking every one's depth of hip hinge will vary. I have a short torso and long femurs for a 5'5" guy. Plus short tibia. When you see me swing from the front it looks like I am not hinging at all but looking from the side you can see I am indeed.
It's about finding YOUR optimal leverage position. How do you know where that is? it's the position that produces the most force, the most speed and power as well as endurance and DOESN'T hurt any joints

I was forced to swing with a completely vertical shin for over 10 years due to a knee that only bent 90 deg. Once that got fixed I realized a little big of knee flexion made me more powerful and enduring and made my back less stiff as well afterwards.

Watch ANY one swinging REALLY heavy bells, they all introduce some knee flexion at some point. They have to or they'll get pulled over.

and since it's all easy til it's heavy one can mimic any style you want with a light bell. But is it optimal? you only know at your top end

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

A squatty type swing does not simulate a wide stance power squat.In fact, just the opposite. A wide stance power squat , to quote Louie Simmons is a "good morning that breaks parallel"

Rif,

Wide Stance Squat Swings

The Squat Style Kettlebell Swing, as I described and as it is preformed, stimulate the Wide Stance Powerlifting Squat.

"A Good Morning That Breaks Parallel"

Due the low bar placement, more forward lean occurs.

The amount of forward lean is dependent on how you're built...



Tom Purvis does a nice job of breaking down why some lifter remain more vertical and other have more forward lean.

While more back is involved in the Powerlifting Squat, stating it is a Good Morning that breaks parallel is an exaggeration. Again, there is definitely some forward lean but not so much that it should replicate a Good Morning.

The shins vertical, sitting back hinge, our classic HS KB swing, is much closer to a power squat than the squatty type swing.

Vertical Shins

With the Squat Style Kettlebell Swing, the bell swing back, ensuring your shin remain vertical.

The drive out of the hole develops the stretch reflex with from the legs, parallel to the floor; the shins maintained in a vertical position to the floor.

To stand back up, the legs must drive upward and forward during the movement.

Driving Out of The Hole

The main benefit of the Squat Style Swing is that it develop the stretch reflex out of the whole; something the Hard Swing won't. With that said the Hard Swing is a good tool.

When the Squat Syle Swing is executed correctly, you feel it, you get it.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

as for the stretch reflex in the squat style swing you are correct but it's in the quads and not the hips,

Hip Drive

With the Squat Style Kettlebell Swing, you definitely elicit the stretch reflex and feel it in the hips. If someone isn't feeling it, something wrong.

you seem to be confused with the technique of a true widestance power squat; the movement is back, not down as in an Oly squat

The Wide Stance Powerlifting Squat

The Wide Stance Powerlifting Squat requires vertical and horizontal force production.

As a Powerlifter, I am quite familiar with the the lifts.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

It's about finding YOUR optimal leverage position. How do you know where that is? it's the position that produces the most force, the most speed and power as well as endurance and DOESN'T hurt any joints

Goldilocks

Exactly.

Finding what works best is like Goldilocks, you need to experiment and find what works for you.

"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing." Einstein

Experimentation is part of learning process. When something doesn't work, that means you are moving closer to finding what will work.

Watch ANY one swinging REALLY heavy bells, they all introduce some knee flexion at some point. They have to or they'll get pulled over.

Heavy Squat Style Kettlebell Swings

As I designated in my previous post, in a heavy Squat Style Kettlebell Swing the bell should not not move too far forward from the body.

This place a greater overload on the quad and glutes. You definitely will feel it.

The emphasis is on driving the bell up vertically and horizontally. When performed correctly, the bell isn't going to pull you forward/over, as it will with a Traditional Kettlebell Swing.

A heavy Traditional Kettlebell Swing is going to pull you forward. My heaviest Swing are with 170 lbs (Hungaran Core Blaster).

Initially, the Hungarian Core Blaster was swing me. You eventually get the rhythm down and lay back to counter the horizontal force.

since it's all easy til it's heavy one can mimic any style you want with a light bell. But is it optimal?

Is It Optimal?

I am not completely sure what you're saying here so my reply might isn't specifically address this.

The load needs to be heavy enough so that it elicits the best training response you are after.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Rif]

Rif,

Wide Stance Squat Swings

The Squat Style Kettlebell Swing, as I described and as it is preformed, stimulate the Wide Stance Powerlifting Squat.

"A Good Morning That Breaks Parallel"

Due the low bar placement, more forward lean occurs.

The amount of forward lean is dependent on how you're built...



Tom Purvis does a nice job of breaking down why some lifter remain more vertical and other have more forward lean.

While more back is involved in the Powerlifting Squat, stating it is a Good Morning that breaks parallel is an exaggeration. Again, there is definitely some forward lean but not so much that it should replicate a Good Morning.



Vertical Shins

With the Squat Style Kettlebell Swing, the bell swing back, ensuring your shin remain vertical.

The drive out of the hole develops the stretch reflex with from the legs, parallel to the floor; the shins maintained in a vertical position to the floor.

To stand back up, the legs must drive upward and forward during the movement.

Driving Out of The Hole

The main benefit of the Squat Style Swing is that it develop the stretch reflex out of the whole; something the Hard Swing won't. With that said the Hard Swing is a good tool.

When the Squat Syle Swing is executed correctly, you feel it, you get it.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny

without a video from you detailing how your version of the squat style swings moves not much of this makes sense to me
"With the Squat Style Kettlebell Swing, the bell swing back, ensuring your shin remain vertical. "

I would think just the opposite as do most. there of course IS a stretch reflex in the shin vertical HS swing, it's just in the glutes not the quads. Precisely why I developed the dead stop swing to take the stretch reflex OUT of the swing, making it the box squat of swings

and with the athletic hinge updated version you still get more leg into the HS swing at the finish making it even more powerful. But the hip movement is back at first, not down

Again, without a video detailing what this should look like I can't really tell what you're getting at

"
Due the low bar placement, more forward lean occurs.

The amount of forward lean is dependent on how you're built..."


Yes agree but regardless the focus of the wide stance power squat OR swing is hip involvement not quads. if the shins are vertical the quads are out of the line of optimal force production

"The drive out of the hole develops the stretch reflex with from the legs, parallel to the floor; the shins maintained in a vertical position to the floor.

this can only happen if the lifter has a long torso, short femurs and squats straight down, not back


"Is It Optimal?

I am not completely sure what you're saying here so my reply might isn't specifically address this.

The load needs to be heavy enough so that it elicits the best training response you are after.
"

what I'm saying here is that one can mimic many different styles with light weight and they will feel "allright" it's only when it goes over 85% or so that you can tell if you have any real strength in that movement. Example: I could sumo deadlift with "perfect" sumo form until the weight got over 365 or so. Then - nothing. My best DL was 545 so you can see the discrepancy

Rif

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

without a video from you detailing how your version of the squat style swings moves not much of this makes sense to me
"With the Squat Style Kettlebell Swing, the bell swing back, ensuring your shin remain vertical. "

Video

Yes, I realize this would definitely help.

Rif, I tried to find something on youtube but couldn't.

"With the Squat Style Kettlebell Swing, the bell swing back, ensuring your shin remain vertical. "

I would think just the opposite as do most. there of course IS a stretch reflex in the shin vertical HS swing, it's just in the glutes not the quads. Precisely why I developed the dead stop swing to take the stretch reflex OUT of the swing, making it the box squat of swings

Squat Style Kettlebell Swing Shins

The shins will be vertical to the floor if the the Squat Style is preformed as it should be.

Dead Stop Swings

Sounds good. It definitely evokes a different training response.

This take us to another interesting topic..

The Box Squat

1) The Westside Method: As you know, this method requires a slight Dead Stop or Pause on the box. It dampens or kills the stretch reflex.

Research (Supertrainng, Siff/Verkhoshansky) determined up to 50% of the Stretch Reflex is lost in a 1 second pause. A pause of 4 seconds completely kills the Stretch Reflex.

Thus, the Westside Box Squat falls into the quazi category of "Isometric Ballistic (Supertraining). However, there's no ballistic.

This method when trained properly develops Power out of the hole but does not elicit or develop the Stretch Reflex.

Since the Squat in Powerlifting involves the Stretch Reflex, some type of training such as Squat Style Kettlebell Swing or similar movement need to be trained.

2) The Original Westside Box Squat: I spoke with Joe DeMarco (who along with George Frenn) came up with this method.

It falls into the category of "Explosive Ballistic" (Supertraining); without going Ballistic. The movement involves momentum prior to driving off the box.

3) Reactive Box Squats: This involves engaging the Stretch Reflex. It works but is controversial.

Research has demonstrated that up to 18% more force production is produced with the Stretch Reflex is engaged

"Squatting: To Be Explosive, Train Explosive"

This article goes into the development of various Squat Training Method that can be used to develop the Stretch Reflex.

There is a progression from entry level Squat Plyometric Training to the most aggressive, Reactive Box Squats.

The underlying message is find the one you are comfortable with.

"The drive out of the hole develops the stretch reflex with from the legs, parallel to the floor; the shins maintained in a vertical position to the floor.

this can only happen if the lifter has a long torso, short femurs and squats straight down, not back

Vertical and Horizontal

In the Powerlfiting Squat, there is vertical and horizontal movement; more than one plane of movement.

what I'm saying here is that one can mimic many different styles with light weight and they will feel "allright" it's only when it goes over 85% or so that you can tell if you have any real strength in that movement. Example: I could sumo deadlift with "perfect" sumo form until the weight got over 365 or so. Then - nothing. My best DL was 545 so you can see the discrepancy

Technique

Yes, technique is easy to maintain with a light weight. As you essentially noted, using a light weight to develop technique for a heavy max is not optimal.

The key to developing technique for a max lift is to perform singles, maybe double with a load that is 85% of your 1 Repetition Max for sets.

When your technique begins to fall apart. Stop. Continuing reinforces bad technique due muscle fatigue.

Developing Strength For A Lift

Using a competition lift as a means of increasing strength works at the expense of technique. Your technique is altered with each repetition, as fatigue begins to set in.

To increase strength for a competition lift, Auxiliary Exercises (The Westside Method) that are similar in nature to the competition lift need to be performed.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Ryan T]

Video

Yes, I realize this would definitely help.

Rif, I tried to find something on youtube but couldn't.

Hey Kenny, even though I'm not interested in doing the squat swing myself, I am interested in seeing it excuted the way you describe. Could you post a video of yourself doing it?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Hey Kenny, even though I'm not interested in doing the squat swing myself, I am interested in seeing it excuted the way you describe. Could you post a video of yourself doing it?

Ryan,

Yea, I need to see if I can post a video; something that I've never done.

I'll see if one of my buddies can help me get it done.

Kenny

 

[Steve Freides]

As a Powerlifter, I am quite familiar with the the lifts.

Mark Reifkind, Author at StrongFirst

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Mark Reifkind, Author at StrongFirst

-S-

Thanks,

Kenny

 

[North Coast Miller]

Watch ANY one swinging REALLY heavy bells, they all introduce some knee flexion at some point. They have to or they'll get pulled over.

and since it's all easy til it's heavy one can mimic any style you want with a light bell. But is it optimal? you only know at your top end

My question relative to this entire conversation - There's no doubt you can add more weight, but doesn't that knee bend turn the swing toward an entirely different focus?

As an example, say I'm doing Good Mornings with a sandbag across my shoulders. I keep my legs almost 100% straight and the load is laser focused on my hamstrings with glutes pulling secondary.

I can do more weight if I bend my knees so my shins are vertical and transfer some of the load off of my hamstrings to my glutes, now the glutes are primary and hamstrings secondary.

I can do even more weight if I bend my knees and let them drift out over my feet more, now transferring some of the load from my glutes to my quads - but at this point my hamstrings barely feel the pull and load is equally distributed over quads and glutes.

I realize there's not really a right or wrong answer, but I don't think you can determine best form by which one enables the highest loading if the focus of the movement is shifting at the same time.

 

[Steve Freides]

@North Coast Miller, I don't think the comparison of knee bend in a heavy swings and knee bend in a GM works. With a truly heavy swing, as @Rif says, you have no choice, and the pictures in @Brett Jones' article show what we're looking for in a swing with a heavy weight. There is a YouTube of someone swinging a 48 kg at 49 kg of bodyweight - you will, as Rif says, simply be pulled over backwards.

A good progression is to start with shins vertical and light weight, and develop a good swing. Once a person starts adding weight, some forward knee movement will necessarily happen, and of course, how much knee bend will depend on many things. The 48 @ 49 swings still feature knees _not_ going past the toes.



and so does this one



Thank you for the videos, @Al Ciampa.

-S-

 

[Al Ciampa]

@North Coast Miller, I don't think the comparison of knee bend in a heavy swings and knee bend in a GM works. With a truly heavy swing, as @Rif says, you have no choice, and the pictures in @Brett Jones' article show what we're looking for in a swing with a heavy weight. There is a YouTube of someone swinging a 48 kg at 49 kg of bodyweight - you will, as Rif says, simply be pulled over backwards.

A good progression is to start with shins vertical and light weight, and develop a good swing. Once a person starts adding weight, some forward knee movement will necessarily happen, and of course, how much knee bend will depend on many things. The 48 @ 49 swings still feature knees _not_ going past the toes.



and so does this one



Thank you for the videos, @Al Ciampa.

-S-

My stance was too wide back then in general, but, that globe is pretty thick too. That little chick was packed full of type IIs... miss those days.

You are _welcome_, @Steve Freides

 

[WxHerk]

My stance was too wide back then in general, but, that globe is pretty thick too. That little chick was packed full of type IIs... miss those days.

You are _welcome_, @Steve Freides

Miss those days, indeed, says the guy behind the camera.. @Al Ciampa saved my life.

And, yes, that globe is THICK.

 

[Al Ciampa]

Miss those days, indeed, says the guy behind the camera.. @Al Ciampa saved my life.

And, yes, that globe is THICK.

Always great to hear from YOU, Sir!!! Stay safe.

 

[Steve Freides]

You are _welcome_, @Steve Freides

__

-S-

 

[IonRod]

I feel like this thread is about a Snowman or the Loch Ness monster. So much discussion, so many details and heated debates. And yet not a single photo or video of the actual movement?