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Old Forum Kettlebell Strong or Barbell Strong

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GalifreyTourist

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I have been reading recently that strength that is built with Kettlebells is highly specific to the Kettlebell lifts and is useless when the strength has to be demonstrated with a barbell or in a fight.

The consensus seems to be that Kettlebells are lighter than dumbbells so they cant build as much strength, and the position of the kettlebell on the forearm makes pressing "too easy".  I think that these opinions MUST be wrong; but I have almost no experience of pressing with a barbell.  Who is right?
 
For starters, the position of the kettlebell on the forearm means that you are pressing with your wrist in the proper position for a punch
 
Daniel, there is no point in making theoretical arguments.  All strength is specific, much strength has good carryover, and the idea that strength can only be measured by performance with a barbell or in a fight is, well, if you'll forgive me, absolutely ridiculous.  There is no right, and not only that, what might be right for a certain person and time in their life isn't going to stay "right" forever, either.  In any conversation of "how should I train," you must first give at least a brief background:

Injury history, and are you cleared to exercise without restrictions?

Weight training history - what you trained for and what have you achieved?

Sport history - what sports have you played, at what level?

Goals - to what do you aspire?  A body composition objective, a powerlifting meet, to win an arm wrestling match, a black belt in karate, etc.?

Armed with at least those things, we might suggest programs for you.

Last but not least, you'll notice we offer courses and certifications using barbells, using kettlebells, and using bodyweight only.  We offer all three because all three are good.

If your goal isn't clear to you, then I suggest you look at the requirements for the different instructor certifications offered here and start training to achieve them.
 -S-
 
Well I want to be strong first, I love bodyweight strength and am currently obsessing over getting a solid one legged squat, but I'm still a long way off. But I also love dead-lifting and overhead pressing.

Body Composition would be nice, you know its nice to look like you go to the gym every day and not just be skinny.

The only sport I currently do is Rock Climbing, other than that I'd just like to be fit enough to try my hand at anything I fancy, Rugby, Fighting or Kayaking.

Injury wise I'm fine.

Strength wise I'm weak.
 
The movement patterns and tension/relaxation techniques in StrongFirst hardstyle kettlebell training are essential universal athletic skills. And we on board with barbells too.
 
I have been reading recently that strength that is built with Kettlebells is highly specific to the Kettlebell lifts and is useless when the strength has to be demonstrated with a barbell or in a fight.
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Not really. Kettlebells, because of their shape, require kettlebell specific skill to use them, and the shape does limit the weight that can be carried.

But, people who train with kettlebells are as strong as they can lift. If a person works up to 10 presses with a 24 kg kettlebell, then they can surely do the same with a 25 kg dumbbell.

The weight is weight, and the body does not know the difference. That is why kettlebells are not mythical tools for strength (so yes, they are overhyped a lot).
The consensus seems to be that Kettlebells are lighter than dumbbells so they cant build as much strength, and the position of the kettlebell on the forearm makes pressing “too easy”.  I think that these opinions MUST be wrong; but I have almost no experience of pressing with a barbell.  Who is right?
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It is difficult to compare unilateral lifting with bilateral lifting. But, I found kettlebell pressing to be not easier than pressing a dumbbell of the same weight. It is a little different, but the greatest weight I pressed with one hand was a barbell (in a side press). I would imagine that the normal split is that a person can press with one hand 40% of what they can press with two hands (I am just guessing there), but it is also possible to be significantly stronger in pressing with one hand if one trains that way, and likewise, a person can be significantly stronger with two hands if they train for it.

In "real life", strength is less specific. I was reading of a very good powerlifter who years later stated he was really only strong in the powerlifts. He couldn't do much else. So, judging strength depends on the context. Is a person who can squat a 1000 lb barbell stronger who cannot do a pullup stronger than a person who can squat 200 lbs, but can do a one armed pullup?

My warning about kettlebells is do them if you enjoy them, otherwise, it is a very specific way to train and requires instruction on technique just to handle the shape of the weight properly.

I would suggest, in addition to your bodyweight training (calisthenics is the first and only essential way to train, if a person cannot move their own body well, they are weak) that you try heavy barbell training, maybe StrongLifts or 5/3/1 or something like it.

 
 
As the cliche goes, its not about the kettlebell (or the tool) its about movement.. Treat each exposure to any tool as a chance to learn something. Learning things like full body tension is an art that needs constant practice
 
Daniel, "I'm weak" is too vague - please give a few statistics, e.g., height, weight, approximate body composition, and some numbers. e.g., your 1RM one-arm kettlebell press, barbell deadlift, a pullup max reps @ bodyweight and/or a 1RM weighted pullup, that sort of thing.

Having asked those questions, I'll continue without your answer - all other things being equal, your best to start with the kettlebell.  As others have said, once you learn the principles, you can apply them to many modalities, and the warmups plus the two basic programs in Enter The Kettlebell are fantastic - do your goblet and wall squats, work on your getups and swings, move into the Rite of Passage, and you will become stronger without a doubt.

Along the way, work with a local SFG as much as you can.

-S-
 
I feel like kettlebells are are an ntroduction to barbell work, like an introductory course. To get really strong, the barbell may be the tool of choice, but the design of the kettlebell makes me learn the movements better than with a dumbbell. Staying tight is more necessary here I feel.

What is best about the kettlebell, and specificcaly the swing, clean, snatch etc., is you learn to HINGE right. Yes, I think kettlebells teach you the most powerful movement your body is able to perform.
 
Some Numbers

Height- 5' 11"

Weight-70kg (155lbs)

Body comp

7mm Suprailiac skin fold
29 Inch waist (measured at the navel)
46 inch shoulders (measured at the middle of the Delts)
approximate body fat 12%-15%

Best Press (1 RM)- 24kg Right/20 kg Left

Best Tactical Pull up (1 RM)- Bodyweight Plus 10kg

Best  Tactical Pull up- Bodyweight 5Reps

Best Deadlift-100kg x5

Best Front Squat (1 RM)- 44kg (double 24's)

 

 

 
 
Daniel, I'd recommend you forget kettlebells unless you aspire to do high rep lifts, and get a barbell set. Deadlift, clean and press, front squat, etc, and work on calisthenics, especially pullups. The restricted weight range of kettlebells is probably a severe disadvantage to you. (Also, double 24 kg is 48 kg). Using kettlebells for lifts like front squats and presses will limit what you can do. There is a reason why Russian kettlebells turned into a high rep sport in overhead lifts, and no other iron sport did.

 
 
Daniel,

Obviously lots of ways of good ways to get strong.  To disreguard KBs unless you aspire to do high rep lifts  I feel would be a mistake and a narrow viewpoint. I dont think you, myself, or many others are at a point where the resticted weight range of KBs becomes a limiting factor.  On the grinds that SFG teaches they are just that, a grind, and they are done for low reps.
 
Kettlebell strength has a better carry over to barbell strength than barbell to kettlebell strength.While barbell users may put up big number with the barbell i have a lot of respect for the strength of someone pressing or front squatting double 48kgs KB's.That strength will carryover to barbell strength more as i said above.The down side is KB's have a bigger gap between weights than a barbell.A barbell can be adjusted for smaller jumps in weight.Leverages are diffrent making the KB a little harder to do on the "same"lifts. As for a press being easier with a KB,remember the the center of gravity is away from the forearm making it similar to a behind the neck press with a barbell, and different from a dumbbell with the dumbbell having the center of gravity right over the wrist and forearm.With the dumbbell will be more of a balance factor involved.Two different tools achieving the same movement with different factors involved leverages and how the movement is done.

An observation from your statement above is that a person that works with heavier KB swings has a better start at being a good deadlifter than a deadlifter trying to be good at KB swings.They are both great tools for strength it is as i've said on other posts what your intent and purpose is for the goal you choose that will help you decide what is the right tool for the job.
 
Obviously lots of ways of good ways to get strong.  To disreguard KBs unless you aspire to do high rep lifts  I feel would be a mistake and a narrow viewpoint. I dont think you, myself, or many others are at a point where the resticted weight range of KBs becomes a limiting factor.  On the grinds that SFG teaches they are just that, a grind, and they are done for low reps.
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By restricted weight range, I was referring to the nearly universal weight increments based on poods. That makes sense for agriculture, where things are sold in such increments. It does not make sense for strength training.  Strongmen of the past used shot filled kettle weights for "grinds"...traditional Russian lifting was almost always high rep in competition. The earliest GS numbers I can find are all high rep (amazingly high...such people must be extremely strong). By saying that kettlebells are best for ballistic high rep lifts is not disparagement. It is what they are best suited for, and what they are most often used for.

The restricted weight range (in the sense it seems I meant...I should have worded that differently) does not generally limit overhead presses (the heaviest kettlebell for competition is a 46 kg...and unless one is superman, that is not something most are going to surpass).

Here is a video of someone jerking one of those 30 times: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yViVLlLKiZo

But aside from overhead single arm lifting, grinding with a kettlebell is inferior to other weights, because the limiting factor is not the weight, but the shape of it. Front squats with kettlebells require holding the bells in front of one's body, whereas with a barbell, one holds it over the centre of gravity.

That is why kettlebells are invariably and traditionally single arm weights, and done overhead. To get heavier would lead to something like this: http://www.strength-oldschool.com/gallery/image/1757-arnold-stone-lifting-560-pounds-in-munich/
Kettlebell strength has a better carry over to barbell strength than barbell to kettlebell strength.
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If kettlebell strength refers to high rep lifts with kettlebell specific technique, then that is true. If it refers to being able to lift heavy weights, then it is not.

The heaviest snatches, deadlifts, presses, squats, etc were all done with a barbell and trained for with a barbell.

As for barbell training making one stiff, that is possible for exclusively training with a barbell. But doing calisthenics and mobility with it will avoid that. Valery did gymnastics before ever touching a kettlebell...before he broke his arm doing something stupid anyway.
 
The simple point to Daniel is hardstyle KB training can  make one very strong and one can continue to make strength gains for a very long time using them.  This point is true reguardless of who or how someone used them in the past.
 
I can still use a kettlebell for front squats tho I'm still a long way off front squatting double 48's. I can also use kettle bells to weigh down one legged squats that would improve my squatting strength wouldn't it?

 
 
I can still use a kettlebell for front squats tho I’m still a long way off front squatting double 48′s. I can also use kettle bells to weigh down one legged squats that would improve my squatting strength wouldn’t it?
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Sure, you can do what you want. Resistance is resistance.

For front squats, keep in mind that holding kettlebells in front of your body is the limiting factor, not how much you can squat. But if one can rack them without problems, then one can front squat them.

For pistols, the limiting factor is not squat strength, but stability. That makes one legged squats extremely useful, as that is probably a more important factor (hip/knee/ankle stability) in the "real world" than the strength of the squat itself. And they do not require a squat rack and are much easier to add resistance to.

 
 
I would say that the carry over from KB's to other methods is quite good. Also, utilizing primarily KB's can lead to great gains in strength overall. The last several months I've been focusing on heavy doubles (basically following the word of Geoff Neupert after falling in love with doubles a few years back with RTK ) with various programs. High volume total, yes. High reps sets, no. The hip, ankle, knee mobility from front squats has allowed me to be able to do full pistols on either leg without ever training specifically for that movement. The high tension RKC/SFG principles have built strength and control to allow that mobility/balance in addition to the pure strength gains.

But the biggest WTH moment? We recently started our summer program for the upcoming football season where I coach freshman (high school). I haven't touched a barbell in well  over a decade. I haven't done a power clean in even longer - probably 13-15 years. But the curiosity bug bit me and I wondered what  I could do, knowing that the hip hinge learned from KB training and SFG/RKC principles assured better technique compared to my high school days.

So, I found an empty platform and started testing the waters. The result? I hit a lifetime PR of 200lbs with the power clean (finished with minimal dip into the catch/rack - no front squat, 225lbs, maybe more,  is very possible). At a weight of 205lbs. At the age of 33. On a whim.  No specific training. No barbells for over a decade. Just KB's. Heavy double KB's, SFG/RKC principles and Geoff Neupert's programs as of late (from More KB Muscle, KB Express Ultra, KB Strong is next up).

The carry over of KB's to anything else, in my experience, far exceeds that of other methods. I enjoy other methods, sure. But (again, in my experience) KB's have proven to be the biggest bang for the buck. Results on their own and fantastic carry over to many areas.

Just my $0.02 worth.
 
Thanks for that story, its really encouraging, I want to use Kettlebells to improve my GPP and I love pressing a heavy bell overhead.

But I also love Dead lifting and I really enjoy the feel of Cals like handstands and Pull-ups. Ideally I'd have a program that allowed me to do all of these at once. But for now I just mess around with DL's and Cals on my variety days.
 
Daniel, please stop asking questions - pick a program and follow it.  At your stage of things, you have plenty of room for progress with any program - pick a tried and tested program, follow it until you plateau.  I mean no disrespect to my fellow participants in this thread, but the entire discussion is beside the point.  If your 1RM press is 24 kg, you can follow a pressing program.  If you haven't deadlifted double bodyweight for a single yet, you can follow a barbell program, and so on.  The specific program doesn't matter, that you follow a proven program does.

Oh, I almost forgot eat - eat a lot.

-S-
 
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