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Kettlebell Kettlebell swing vs powerclean for power production

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Not sure exactly what you're looking for, but if I take the question literally as in "what's the difference in power output when swinging and power cleaning" then that's easy: the power clean requires much more power

Power is Energy divided by time. Energy is Force times distance.

P=Fd/t

A good first order approximation is that the distance that you're applying the force is about the same. That is, the pop on the swing and the pop on the clean start and stop with the hips about in the same position. Maybe small differences, but not much. Same with the time, the time it takes to apply the force in a swing and a clean are about the same. Maybe the clean is a bit faster, but not by much. So that means the difference in power is about the ratio of the forces applied.

A 32kg swing requires about 70 lbs of force and a 100kg power clean requires about 220 pounds of force. Since the distance the force is being applied is about the same, as is the time over which it happens, then the power output is about three times greater.

That' s just me putting my pedantic physicist's hat on. My guess is the question you're really asking is which of the movements trains power production better? And of course the answer there is, "it depends" :)
 
I agree, too general of a question to provide a specific answer. But generally would say the power clean is better for developing specific peak power production, and the kettlebell swing is better at training power endurance.
 
I agree, too general of a question to provide a specific answer. But generally would say the power clean is better for developing specific peak power production, and the kettlebell swing is better at training power endurance.
What about heavy dead stop things... Those could be pretty decent for developing max power.. just a hunch.. :)
 
What about heavy dead stop things... Those could be pretty decent for developing max power.. just a hunch.. :)

A barbell lets you do much heavier dead stop things... therefore, more power. ;) No sense using a suboptimal tool to clean the heaviest weight one is capable of. A barbell is going to be the best tool to challenge the ability to get the most weight from floor to rack.

The other difference is the movement. We don't use a double knee bend for kettlebell cleans; therefore, the weight is limited by the weight we can use with a single knee and hip extension. With the barbell clean the most power is developed in the second pull.

Even this super impressive KB clean at 92kg is not even close to a big weight compared to a barbell clean for someone of comparable size/strength/skill. And these are not dead stop cleans, so I would think an equivalent dead stop clean would have to be a bit lighter.

 
Agreeing with @Anna C
A dead stop swing with the heaviest KB there is (a 92Kg) will develop power, but better than a 100Kg power clean? I would say no.
And a 100Kg PC is powerful, but nothing to brag about.
Also I would argue PCs are safer to perform than super heavy dead stop swings and KB dead cleans.
 
What about heavy dead stop things... Those could be pretty decent for developing max power.. just a hunch.. :)

When I do clean and press with a KB (multiple times a week), I do dead stop cleans, because, well, I'm a weightlifter and that's how we clean things. ;)

They're not too bad of an approximation of a barbell clean from the hip point of view, but they're lacking in a few areas:

1. Triple extension doesn't come into play as much, because the center of mass of a KB clean doesn't go nearly as high; the kettlebell only has to get to mid chest height, not clavicle height, because the KB rack position is lower than the BB rack position.

2. Weight, and thus net power production, isn't even close. My warmup barbell cleans start at 60kg and work up to ~120 kg on regular training days. At competition prep time I'll be moving closer to 130+ kg.
 
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Agreeing with @Anna C
A dead stop swing with the heaviest KB there is (a 92Kg) will develop power, but better than a 100Kg power clean? I would say no.
And a 100Kg PC is powerful, but nothing to brag about.
Also I would argue PCs are safer to perform than super heavy dead stop swings and KB dead cleans.

In my experience, KB dead cleans that approach BB weights start to feel mechanically bad, too.

There is a reason Olympic barbells have bearings in them.

In short, if one is serious about maxing out power production, kettlebells become a poor tool at heavier weights.
 
A barbell lets you do much heavier dead stop things... therefore, more power. ;) No sense using a suboptimal tool to clean the heaviest weight one is capable of.

+1

The only reason I bother cleaning kettlebells is so I can press them.

They heaviest competition bell I have (40 kg) doesn't even weigh as much as my barbell clean warmup (20 kg barbell + 2 x 20 kg plates = 60 kg).
 
barbell lets you do much heavier dead stop things... therefore, more power. ;) No sense using a suboptimal tool to clean the heaviest weight one is capable of. A barbell is going to be the best tool to challenge the ability to get the most weight from floor to rack.
Yeah. I ment dead stop swings naturally or cleans... My phone "corrects" my words automatically. It's getting annoyin. :)
 
I was wondering if their exchangeable. Can you get the benefit from using either?

One can help the other to a certain extent. For me, learning the power clean has been a very long road. I suspect part of why it was so difficult is that I was so used to that single knee and hip extension used in hardstyle kettlebell swings, cleans, and snatches. The re-bend and 2nd pull of the power clean went against the groove of power production that I was used to.

Going the other way, sure, getting good at power cleans might help the swing. But both movements are rarely done to get good at themselves, specifically. They are done to attain some physical attribute, characteristic, or assistance to something else competitive or otherwise meaningful. So to that end, whichever one serves the purpose better is the one to do.
 
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I was wondering if their exchangeable. Can you get the benefit from using either?
The Olympic lifts have a higher skill component than their kettlebell brethren. We typically perform swings in sets of 10 and sometimes more while barbell cleans are usually done for low reps. The kettlebell swing might be said to train power-endurance.

It bears looking at the larger picture in a conversation like this. There are many athletic/physical attributes one could deem worthy of training. As others have said, if you have specific goal, you might wish to evaluate which of those attributes you wish to train while it's still early in the process of designing a training program, and then choose the movements you think would be serve your purposes. And it's important to realize that one needs to choose lifting goals carefully if the role of lifting is that of a tool to aid in the performance of a sport other than lifting.

Our experience at StrongFirst has been that the kettlebell swing is the best single movement out there to address a wide range of physical attributes (athletic attributes, health and well-being, etc.), in part because it can be taught fairly quickly to most people, even in a group setting, to the point where it can be performed safely and effectively. We have a good selection of weights that can be used with it without undue planning - when you can swing one bell well enough that it starts to be too light, you just go up 10 lbs (4 kg, 8.8 lbs if we're being exact) to the next size bell.

-S-
 
Thanks
The Olympic lifts have a higher skill component than their kettlebell brethren. We typically perform swings in sets of 10 and sometimes more while barbell cleans are usually done for low reps. The kettlebell swing might be said to train power-endurance.

It bears looking at the larger picture in a conversation like this. There are many athletic/physical attributes one could deem worthy of training. As others have said, if you have specific goal, you might wish to evaluate which of those attributes you wish to train while it's still early in the process of designing a training program, and then choose the movements you think would be serve your purposes. And it's important to realize that one needs to choose lifting goals carefully if the role of lifting is that of a tool to aid in the performance of a sport other than lifting.

Our experience at StrongFirst has been that the kettlebell swing is the best single movement out there to address a wide range of physical attributes (athletic attributes, health and well-being, etc.), in part because it can be taught fairly quickly to most people, even in a group setting, to the point where it can be performed safely and effectively. We have a good selection of weights that can be used with it without undue planning - when you can swing one bell well enough that it starts to be too light, you just go up 10 lbs (4 kg, 8.8 lbs if we're being exact) to the next size bell.

-S-
 
@Anatoly

My experience is that kettlebells give all the strength, power and endurance that I need, but naturally If your goal is to compete in strength sports then you need barbells... But I believe that most athletes would benefit doing some kettlebell work. Specially ballistics(swing,snatch,clean,jerk)..
I work basically only with kettlebells. Mostly hardstyle, but sometimes I also compete in girevoy sport, mostly in marathon lifts. Sometimes I do some running and enter 10km race. In august I'm gonna run 18km trail race.
I do some specific training for that, but getting kettlebell strong helps with everything I'll ever gonna do...

And I cannot thank enough @Pavel @Brett Jones Steve Cotter and all of those early guys who started kettlebell revolution in western world. Finding kettlebell is one the biggest things that have changed my life. I feel great, strong and my endurace is decent. I think I'm pretty much jack of all trades. I can do whatever I want.
Once I made powerlifting meet, olympic meet and kettlebell long cycle in same day.. Power lifts are technically pretty easy and hang snatch and hang clean & jerk are as easy as they are with kbs. Carryover from kbs carry pretty far... But naturally sometimes specific work is needed to achieve specific results.
 
Our experience at StrongFirst has been that the kettlebell swing is the best single movement out there to address a wide range of physical attributes (athletic attributes, health and well-being, etc.)

But I believe that most athletes would benefit doing some kettlebell work. Specially ballistics(swing,snatch,clean,jerk)..

In theory, as a barbell athlete (weightlifting), I shouldn't *need* kettlebell ballistics as I'm already hitting heavier weights with the Olympic competition lifts.

But I still find kettlebell ballistics (and select grinds) useful.

For me, they have a few attributes that even barbell athletes should pay attention to:

1. Swings "undo sitting" better, more quickly than barbell squats and deadlifts

2. Kettlebell ballistics allow for unilateral, anti-rotational, and anti-flexion work in a way barbell ballistics don't

3. Horizontal dynamic traction of shoulders from an upright torso

4. Ability to do ballistics for reps and conditioning that avoids the horror show of barbell cleaning or snatching for time

5. Kettlebell presses are ergonomically superior to barbell presses
 
How does the power production vary between the swing and powerclean?

Power Output

The Power Output of the Kettlebell Swing is in the same ball park as Olympic Movements; providing the right size (Kettlebell Weight) is used.

Let's break it down...

A Review of Power Output Studies of Olympic and Powerlifting:..."

Work by Dr John Garhammer, a biomechanist at the Department of Physical Education at California State University reveals some interesting comparisons between exercises in the development of power. ... In “A Review of Power Output Studies of Olympic and Powerlifting: Methodology, Performance, Prediction and Evaluation Test”, elite Olympic lifters’ and powerlifters’ power outputs were as follows (w/kg = watts per kilo of body weight):

During Entire Snatch or Clean Pull Movements:
34.3 w/kg Men
21.8 w/kg Women

Second Pulls:
52.6 w/kg Men
39.2 w/kg Women

Squat and Deadlift:
12 w/kg Men

With this basic breakdown in mind, the power output comparisons of a
100-kilo male lifter in the clean, second pull and deadlift would be as follows.

Clean————-3430 watts
Second Pull—-5260 watts
Deadlift———-1200 watts

Olympic Lifters have produced some of the, IF not the, highest Power Outputs on record; research Garhammer, above.

That is why Olympic Movements area a fundamental in the development of Power of most sports.

On a personal note, I grew up performing Power Cleans and Power Snatches.

The only other group of athletes that have matched Olympic Lifters in Power Output is Shot Putters.

Kettlebell Power Output Study

Here is the breakdown...


StyleLoad (lbs)Peak Vertical Force (N)Peak Horizontal Force (N)
Squat Style702,170-2,349166-182
Squat Style1402,431-2,444278-353
Hip Hinge Style701,935-2,140340-402
Hip Hinge Style1402,325-2,550499-520

As note above, for maximal Power Output to be achieved with a Kettlebell, a heavy bell needs to be used. That means performing the Swing with a Kettlebell that is around 50% to 100% of your body weight.

I've worked up to Swings with 170 lbs for set of 5 repetitions at a 194 lb body weight, with the Home Made Hungarian Core Blaster; information about ow to make it is in the Contreras' article above. The Home Made Hungarian Core Blaster is simple, cheap and it works.

One case study indicated that Power Output was optimally developed and displayed with a Kettlebell around 30% of body weight.

Science of the Swing

"Using myself as an example (100kg body weight) my "sweet-spot" bell is the 32kg bell (32% of my bw)."

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Kettlebell Swing Take Home Message

The majority of individual don't use a Kettlebell that is heavy enough in the Swing to fully optimize Power Output development.

The Olympic lifts have a higher skill component than their kettlebell brethren.

Skill Level of Olympic Movements

As Steve states, Olympic Movement have a higher skill component".

For individual interesting in developing Power but for whatever reason can't or don't want to take the time to develop Olympic Lifting skills, here are a some movements...

Heavy Kettlebell Swings

Already addressed.

Trap Bar Jumps and Research Data

They is similar an Olympic Jump Clean Movement; less skill is required, they are easily, quickly learned

Effect of Load Positioning on the Kinematics and Kinetics of Weighted Vertical Jumps
Swinton, Paul A.; Stewart, Arthur D.; Lloyd, Ray; More
Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 26(4):906-913, April 2012.

...when jumps were performed with the hexagonal barbell, significantly greater peak power was produced with an external resistance of 20% 1RM compared with all other conditions.

Optimal Loading Range for the Development of Peak Power Output in the Hexagonal Barbell Jump Squat
Turner, Thomas S.; Tobin, Daniel P.; Delahunt, Eamonn
Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research . 29(6):1627-1632, June 2015.

"Peak power output for each loaded condition.*
HBJS = Hex Bar Jump Squat/Jump Clean

Condition Peak power (W) HBJS 10% 5758.44
HBJS 20% 5783.40
HBJS 30% 5604.40
HBJS 40% 5450.78

No Trap Bar, No Problem

Use Dumbbells

The Clean High Pull

Allen Hedrick is one of the best Strength Coaches there is.

His article provide great information on it and how to "Performing the Clean High Pull Correctly".

High Pull Video Demo
 
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the kettlebell swing is better at training power endurance.

Kettlebell Power Development

Power can be developed that Kettlebells Swing when a Heavy Kettlebell is used and repetition are are kept to 5 Repetition or less.

Power also can be developed with Moderately Heavy Kettlebells by attaching a band to the bell.
 
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