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Kettlebell Kettlebell swing vs powerclean for power production

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What about heavy dead stop things.

Dead Stop Olympic Pulls

Dead Stop Olympic Pulls From The Knees have a place in training.

The bar is lowered to just below the knees, paused for a few seconds to kill the Stretch Reflex, followed by an Explosive Pull,

This essentially develops "Starting Power Strength" from just below the knees.

This method is referred to as an "Isometric-Ballistic Movement; Verkhoshansky's Special Strength, a brilliant piece of work.

Plyometric Hang Pulls

With Plyometric Hang Pulls, you stand up with the bar, allow it to quickly drop down just above you knees, obtain a rebound and then explode up with the bar.

This is one of my favorite Olympic Pulling Movements. Getting a little bounce off your thighs, just above the knees elicits the Stretch Reflex allowing your to utilize more weight in the Plyometric Hang Pull vs the Dead Stop Pull From The Knees.

Since you are able to use more weight with the Plyometric Hang Pull), you obtain greater Overloading in the top part of the pull.

This method is referred to as an "Explosive-Reactive-Ballistic Movement; Verkhoshansky's Special Strength.

There are some additional benefits to Plyometric Hang Pulls...

A comparison of kinetic and kinematic variables during the pull from the knee and hang pull, across loads.
J Strength Cond Res 34(7): 1819–1829, 2020


Practical Applications

It is imperative for strength and conditioning coaches to select exercises that maximize their athletes’ athletic capabilities and identify which muscle strength quality is the primary focus throughout the training cycle. The HP (Plyometric Hang Pull) results in consistently higher kinetic and kinematic variables compared with the PFK (Dead Stop Pull From Knees) across all loads, although only significantly and meaningfully greater at all loads in MF, MP, and MSV, while significant differences were evident at loads ≥ 100% for PV, BV, PP, and net impulse. The results of this study demonstrate that the greatest force and impulse is maximized at the higher loads, while in contrast, the greatest PSV range occurs at lighter loads, during both the PFK and HP. It is important to note that to train the entire load-velocity curve and facilitate adaptations across the force-velocity profile, a range of loads exercises should be prescribed in a sequenced and periodized manner, as it seems that the load maximizes kinetic and kinematic outputs is exercise specific and occurs across a spectrum of loads (13,27,31).
 
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Kettlebell Power Development

Power can be developed that Kettlebells Swing when a Heavy Kettlebell is used and repetition are are kept to 5 Repetition or less.

Power also can be developed with Moderately Heavy Kettlebells by attaching a band to the bell.

Agree. But in both cases, there must be a strong intent to swing the heavy kettlebell high/hard/fast. When I swing a heavy bell (40-48kg 2H), I sometimes feel that it takes twice as much power to swing it to shoulder height as opposed to just below sternum height. Both swings are "good swings" with good technique. But one has a lot more power development potential than the other. So I think it's a bit too easy to say "I did x sets of x swings with 40kg" to and count that the same "power development" as the same number of swings with much less power applied. I think there can be a wide range of actual training stimulus.

In contrast, with a power clean, you either get the bar to your shoulders, or you don't. In that way, it's like a kettlebell snatch. There is a fixed amount of power that must be applied to end the movement. And a heavy kettlebell snatch is decent for power development, but it has some limitations with grip and unilateral stability that usually come into play before power production. So again I'd go with the barbell power clean if increasing peak power production is the goal.
 
it takes twice as much power to swing it to shoulder height as opposed to just below sternum height.

Swing Height

Posterior Chain Power in the Swing is optimally developed when when a heavy Bell is around waist height. If the Bell is heavy enough, that is going to be as highest you get it. Your aren't going be able to generate it any enough Power to get it higher.

Pulling it any higher means you were using a Bell that was too light,

Using a lighter Bell under load the lower body posterior chain.

As an example let's compare...

The Russian Kettlebell Swing to The Americian Kettlebell Swing

A much lighter Kettlebells is required to get the Kettlebell overhead in The American Kettlebell Swing. Using a Bell that allows you to get it overhead, under loads the lower body posterior Chain.

a power clean, you either get the bar to your shoulders, or you don't.

Descending Strength Curve

Olympic Pulls have a Descending Strength Curve, as with most compound pulling movements. The movement is easier at the bottom and harder at the top.

Thus, as the load increases, the height of you pull decreases. It's the same with the Kettlebell Swing.

Olympic High Pulls

In Olympic Pulling Movements, great Power is developed with High Pulls vs Power Cleans.

As bar load increases, Power decreases in the top part of a Pull.

The Catch in a heavy Power Clean occur the bar has stalled. The bar isn't isn't going up, it about to go down.

That is why with a heavy load you have to dip to make the Catch in the Power Clean; you are catching a falling object.

Thus, less weight is able to be used for a Power Clean than a High and especially a Low Pull.

I did x sets of x swings with 40kg" to and count that the same "power development" as the same number of swings with much less power applied.

"Much Less Power Applied"

Much less Power is going be applied and developed with a lighter Bell.

I think there can be a wide range of actual training stimulus.

Training Stimulus

Different training loads elicit a different training effect/stimulus.

As the article stated, "It is important to note that to train the entire load-velocity curve and facilitate adaptations across the force-velocity profile, a range of loads exercises should be prescribed..."

The Second Pull


Garhammer's research determined...

Second Pulls:
52.6 w/kg Men
39.2 w/kg Women

Great Olympic Lifter only need to pull the weight to around waist height to Clean it. The distance is from the around the knee area to waist.

That's similar to swinging a Heavy Kettebell to around the waist area.

A great example of that is...

Al Caimpa: The Poster Child for Heavy Kettlebells Swings

There use to be a Youtube Video of Al Ciampa performing Heavy Kettlebell Swings. However, it disappeared.

In the video, Al Ciampa was performing Kettlebell Swings with a 92kgs/202 lbs to around waist height with an enormous amount of Power.
 
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Good points, @kennycro@@aol.com

Posterior Chain Power in the Swing is optimally developed when when a heavy Bell is around waist height. If the Bell is heavy enough, that is going to be as highest you get it. Your aren't going be able to generate it any enough Power to get it higher.

Pulling it any higher means you were using a Bell that was too light,

I feel like there's a disconnect with the swing, though. What you're saying may be true for some people, but for me, I hit the limit of what I can swing with regard to "above the hips" before I hit this limit of what my hips and legs can swing. Now, this may be an individual thing, or it may be a female thing. I can swing a 48kg pretty well. But heavier than that (and it's been a while since I tried, but likely the same now) it's a struggle to stabilize the spine, upper torso, arms, and shoulders where the need to be, though my legs and hips can still do the work.
 
It's also worth mentioning that, while swinging heavy enough to benefit one's deadlift directly is great, a lot of the StrongFirst focus in on what I'd call power-endurance, and there is some magic in those power-endurance swings, although it's beyond me to explain it. I say this to make the point that heavy swings for maximum power production aren't the only things a kettlebell swing is good for.

-S-
 
The Clean High Pull

Allen Hedrick is one of the best Strength Coaches there is.

His article provide great information on it and how to "Performing the Clean High Pull Correctly".

High Pull Video Demo


Glad this thread got revived because I wanted to revisit something about that high pull example.

This article and video within it don't match.

She's doing an additional "pull under" movement (bending the legs) at the end of the pull that most people don't include in a high pull, and it's not described at all in the article. The article says to end the movement as "move into a fully extended position at the ankles, knees, and hips."

@randyh introduced me to something referred to as "panda pulls" that DO include this knee bend, and are good practice for initiating the pull under for snatch and clean. But this is not typically part of a high pull, to my understanding.
 
The Olympic lifts have a higher skill component than their kettlebell brethren. We typically perform swings in sets of 10 and sometimes more while barbell cleans are usually done for low reps. The kettlebell swing might be said to train power-endurance.

It bears looking at the larger picture in a conversation like this. There are many athletic/physical attributes one could deem worthy of training. As others have said, if you have specific goal, you might wish to evaluate which of those attributes you wish to train while it's still early in the process of designing a training program, and then choose the movements you think would be serve your purposes. And it's important to realize that one needs to choose lifting goals carefully if the role of lifting is that of a tool to aid in the performance of a sport other than lifting.

Our experience at StrongFirst has been that the kettlebell swing is the best single movement out there to address a wide range of physical attributes (athletic attributes, health and well-being, etc.), in part because it can be taught fairly quickly to most people, even in a group setting, to the point where it can be performed safely and effectively. We have a good selection of weights that can be used with it without undue planning - when you can swing one bell well enough that it starts to be too light, you just go up 10 lbs (4 kg, 8.8 lbs if we're being exact) to the next size bell.

-S-

A lot of great things said thus far but the 2 best things I think mentioned are from Steve. To bastardise his eloquently put explanation.

1, the KB swing is incredibly easy to learn. Where as the Olympic lifts are not.

2, the KB swing has a big bang for your buck.

However if you are hoping to maximise power production then the power clean is the clear choice. Providing you have access to good coaching.

If you do not then I have far simpler alternatives. Box squats with accommodating resistance and plyometrics.
 
Glad this thread got revived because I wanted to revisit something about that high pull example.

This article and video within it don't match.

She's doing an additional "pull under" movement (bending the legs) at the end of the pull that most people don't include in a high pull, and it's not described at all in the article. The article says to end the movement as "move into a fully extended position at the ankles, knees, and hips."

@randyh introduced me to something referred to as "panda pulls" that DO include this knee bend, and are good practice for initiating the pull under for snatch and clean. But this is not typically part of a high pull, to my understanding.

The snatch grip variation is also an AMAZING trap builder too.
 
My 2 cents, which are maybe only worth 0.5 cents, from a grappler. Here's a very amateturish judo person's take on it:
1. Barbells are balanced making it possible to go way heavier with everything. Of course you're using more power if you're "swinging" a heavy barbell for the power clean.
2. In my experience doing judo etc (and BJJ) with people who train seriously with barbells, there is zero question in my mind that their barbell training made them WAY stronger than me doing my kettlebell training. However, maybe the "magic" of the kettlebell is that for the miniscule weight I lift/swing in comparison to their huge weights (they deadlift 300kgs whereas I swing 1/10th that much!) I sure as heck was not only 1/10th their strength. It "felt" like I was more around 60% of their strength. (Grappling skill is a whole other category of course, I'm just talking "brute strength" here.)
3. The one handed swing is what builds muscles all through your body like nothing else with a kettlebell. It is the "anti-twist" aspect that makes this work like a charm. Dumbbells aren't so good for this because they are very wide and smash the knees. Still possible though - especially the dumbbell swing-snatch or whatever it's called. If I didn't have kettlebells available for 1 handed swings I'd do this move with the dumbbells available instead. Barbells are NOT anti-twist strength developers. That's a reason to add anti-twist movements into one's training even if one focuses on barbell moves. However, you're getting to such high weights with the barbells that specific anti-twist strength training is probably not needed.
4. The one-handed aspect of kettlebell swings (and other moves like the TGU) make them good training for keeping your balance under stress. This is athletically important. In an athletic context your weight is almost always on one side of the body or the other and not perfectly balanced. This is a good reason to include lop-sided training, like with kettlebell 1 handed swings to one's training.
5. With 1 handed swings you are getting things done that you can't with symmetrical exercises like barbell ones, so I think 1 handed swings are better in this important way than barbells, for this one thing only, which is important though! It's not an unimportant 1 thing! However, 2 handed swings, while certainly having their own flavour and their own utility even for barbell athletes as a kind of training in technique and power production for hip-hinge movements, are really not too much more than just lighter, easier weights for higher reps for doing more or less the same kind of thing - hip hinges - you do with barbell deadlifts, cleans snatches etc...
 
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