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Kettlebell Kettlebells and Gridiron?

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Don Fairbanks said:
At that level ( college ) not complicated at all. It will get programmed if the head strength coach wants it programmed.

NFL, player will do it if they want to.
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Right.

And the head strength coach at a Div I university has to keep one eye on the NFL draftee Combine scores, too.

Here are the standard (non-position) Combine tests:

  • 40-yard dash.
  • Bench press (225 lb repetitions)
  • Vertical jump.
  • Broad jump.
  • 20-yard shuttle.
  • 3 cone drill.
  • 60-yard shuttle.
So if you have a 22-23 year old kid who wants to get drafted into the NFL, he's obsessed with doing reasonably well on these relative to his position peers. And the S&C coach often cares, too, to some extent.

I think it's a pretty hard sell to convince a college coach that sticking TGUs into this mix is worth the time it would take from something else.

And even if he personally thinks so, convincing the rest of the team to break from orthodoxy may have little upside for him.

University S&C Coach: "Jimmy....what the heck are you doing with that kettlebell? Is that yoga? Why aren't you benching per the schedule?!"

Jimmy: "It's a Turkish Get Up. I read on the internet it helps make my proprioception better and improves shoulder health and helps grapplers get off the mat."

University S&C Coach: "Oh, for eff's sake....Jimmy are you a wrestler? There is no getting up in football, son!! When you're down with the ball the play is over! It's called a down for a reason. Your job is to not go down!"

Jimmy: "But what about my shoulder stability?"

University S&C Coach: "You can worry about that if you get drafted and have a million dollar shoulder to protect. But until then, you need to get your bench reps up and your 40 time down if you want to move up the draft ranks."

If kettlebells were to ever become part of the Combine, they would get universally programmed.

Until then....it will be spotty, at best.

[Of course, the offensive/defensive coordinator coaches often have a different POV completely on the value of S&C, generally, and the combine tests, specifically, and it's not necessarily very positive.]
 
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Over ten years ago Chip Morton was strength coach for Cincinnati Bengals who also was a certified kettlebell instructor.
Jon Torine was a strength coach for Peyton Manning era Indianapolis Colts who applied FMS to the team as my best assumption is they were using kettlebells. I heard this from Gray Cook.
Pavel and Geoff Neupert have taught a New England Patriot running back, I forgot who.
 
watchnerd said:
Right.

And the head strength coach at a Div I university has to keep one eye on the NFL draftee Combine scores, too.

Here are the standard (non-position) Combine tests:

  • 40-yard dash.
  • Bench press (225 lb repetitions)
  • Vertical jump.
  • Broad jump.
  • 20-yard shuttle.
  • 3 cone drill.
  • 60-yard shuttle.
So if you have a 22-23 year old kid who wants to get drafted into the NFL, he's obsessed with doing reasonably well on these relative to his position peers. And the S&C coach often cares, too, to some extent.

I think it's a pretty hard sell to convince a college coach that sticking TGUs into this mix is worth the time it would take from something else.

And even if he personally thinks so, convincing the rest of the team to break from orthodoxy may have little upside for him.

University S&C Coach: "Jimmy....what the heck are you doing with that kettlebell? Is that yoga? Why aren't you benching per the schedule?!"

Jimmy: "It's a Turkish Get Up. I read on the internet it helps make my proprioception better and improves shoulder health and helps grapplers get off the mat."

University S&C Coach: "Oh, for eff's sake....Jimmy are you a wrestler? There is no getting up in football, son!! When you're down with the ball the play is over! It's called a down for a reason. Your job is to not go down!"

Jimmy: "But what about my shoulder stability?"

University S&C Coach: "You can worry about that if you get drafted and have a million dollar shoulder to protect. But until then, you need to get your bench reps up and your 40 time down if you want to move up the draft ranks."

If kettlebells were to ever become part of the Combine, they would get universally programmed.

Until then....it will be spotty, at best.

[Of course, the offensive/defensive coordinator coaches often have a different POV completely on the value of S&C, generally, and the combine tests, specifically, and it's not necessarily very positive.]
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Excellent post.

I've actually read a lot of people, including ex-NFL, say that the Combine's Bench Press test is less than optimal. Because it's a set weight of 220lbs for AMRAP, it makes no distinction between a Quarterback and an Offensive Lineman. As Many Reps As Possible also tests strength endurance, which has limited application to a sport where the periods of play are often measured in seconds.

That said, of course prospective NFL players are going to train Bench, since it's going to factor into how well they do at the Combine.
 
watchnerd said:
I think it's a pretty hard sell to convince a college coach that sticking TGUs into this mix is worth the time it would take from something else.
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But probably not because the TGU is so complex and time consuming to learn. It is taught to the gen pop in weekend seminars.
 
Also, regarding Bench Press, if you're Military Press goes up, so does your Bench, all things being equal. Olympic Weightlifters almost never bench, but I've seen an ex-Oly lifter bench 300 at a body weight of 185 the first time he tried the lift. Strongmen train more overhead pressing than bench, because Log Press is a major part of their sport. But Strongmen will still put up massive numbers when benching.
 
marvinthemartian said:
But probably not because the TGU is so complex and time consuming to learn. It is taught to the gen pop in weekend seminars.
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Dan John had to invent the goblet squat because he couldn't get a group of young athletes (college or high school, I don't remember) to squat properly.

Dan, somewhat recently, has also said he isn't a fan of loaded TGUs for pro athletes.

Remember -- you've only got 2-4 hours a week to do S&C in NCAA.

And you still have to fit in benching, sprints, cone drills, vertical jump, broad jump, shuttle drills, etc.

Plus any non-Combine lifts that are common, such as power cleans.

Out of those 2-4 hours, what are you going to drop each week to fit in the TGU?
 
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taikei said:
Over ten years ago Chip Morton was strength coach for Cincinnati Bengals who also was a certified kettlebell instructor.
Jon Torine was a strength coach for Peyton Manning era Indianapolis Colts who applied FMS to the team as my best assumption is they were using kettlebells. I heard this from Gray Cook.
Pavel and Geoff Neupert have taught a New England Patriot running back, I forgot who.
Click to expand...

NFL players don't have the time restrictions that NCAA Divison I has.

Remember, there is a max 20 hours per week on athletic activities in Division I.

Pros can do whatever they want, hire individual trainers, etc.

They've also taken ballet classes.

Some do yoga.

Some do Pilates.

None of these are standard or ubiquitous.
 
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NormanOsborn said:
Also, regarding Bench Press, if you're Military Press goes up, so does your Bench, all things being equal. Olympic Weightlifters almost never bench, but I've seen an ex-Oly lifter bench 300 at a body weight of 185 the first time he tried the lift.
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In the West, Olympic Weightlifters don't typically do a lot of military presses post 1972; Chinese methods are different.

When I was training under Jim Schmidt, I only did them when I was a rank newbie, in my first 1-2 months, then moved on to push press, and then jerk. Once I was doing jerks, I don't recall my coached programming ever regressing back to doing MP / OHP.

Greg Everett has never been my coach, but expresses a similar POV (and in much more detail):


"The press, in my opinion, is most useful as a teaching exercise and as an exercise for use early in a weightlifter’s development due to its simplicity and accessibility. In other words, the more advanced a lifter, the less value it will possess relative to the other exercises available to that lifter."


So whatever was going on with the weightlifter bench press in your anecdote, it probably wasn't because the typical Western weightlifter practices Military Press a lot, at least not in the last 30-40 years.

Or he/she was atypical in training programming.
 
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NormanOsborn said:
Excellent post.

I've actually read a lot of people, including ex-NFL, say that the Combine's Bench Press test is less than optimal. Because it's a set weight of 220lbs for AMRAP, it makes no distinction between a Quarterback and an Offensive Lineman. As Many Reps As Possible also tests strength endurance, which has limited application to a sport where the periods of play are often measured in seconds.

That said, of course prospective NFL players are going to train Bench, since it's going to factor into how well they do at the Combine.
Click to expand...
I participated in the combine in 86, before it was a thing. Most did not practice the drills before hand unless their agents were on the ball and had knowledge of the tests and had connections to trainers/coaches who could teach ways to increase test performance. Besides the 225 bench, I think there was a 185 bench for WR's and DB's. ? Yes, there has been debate about this test for decades. One reason the test has lasted is that it is generally safe. Trying not to get anyone hurt at this stage is a factor.
 
It's funny how varied training methods can be. In baseball for instance you've 2 schools of thought. 1 is no jerking/pressing overhead, no pull ups. The thought is protection of the shoulders since overuse of shoulders is to be avoided for baseball.

The "other" thought is that the rotator cuff and shoulders need strengthening to be ready to take the abuse of a season on the diamond.

Some football strength coaches prefer incline benches to flat benches. Some have their players hitting up push presses as opposed to strict presses.

I think the idea is that using "general" tests to get an "idea" of general strength.

Some of these guys just excell at anything physical. I said it once before and I'm sure @watchnerd can attest as a former D1 player, these guys are natural athletes! When you look at a heavyset O lineman and look at his athletic background many are surprised that he was an all state basketball and/or baseball player "back in the day"..... Same can be said of elite military operators.
 
watchnerd said:
In the West, Olympic Weightlifters don't typically do a lot of military presses post 1972; Chinese methods are different.

When I was training under Jim Schmidt, I only did them when I was a rank newbie, in my first 1-2 months, then moved on to push press, and then jerk. Once I was doing jerks, I don't recall my coached programming ever regressing back to doing MP / OHP.

Greg Everett has never been my coach, but expresses a similar POV (and in much more detail):


"The press, in my opinion, is most useful as a teaching exercise and as an exercise for use early in a weightlifter’s development due to its simplicity and accessibility. In other words, the more advanced a lifter, the less value it will possess relative to the other exercises available to that lifter."


So whatever was going on with the weightlifter bench press in your anecdote, it probably wasn't because the typical Western weightlifter practices Military Press a lot, at least not in the last 30-40 years.

Or he/she was atypical in training programming.
Click to expand...

In your experience, is there any carryover from Snatch and Clean and Jerk to benching? I know the Olympic Lifts are extremely technical and demand a great deal of explosive power. But if you're lifting hundreds of pound over your head, you have to be strong, no matter how technically skilled you are.
 
NormanOsborn said:
In your experience, is there any carryover from Snatch and Clean and Jerk to benching? I know the Olympic Lifts are extremely technical and demand a great deal of explosive power. But if you're lifting hundreds of pound over your head, you have to be strong, no matter how technically skilled you are.
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I don't really know.

As you made the point in your earlier post -- like a lot of weightlifters, I don't train the bench press. I don't even own a bench.

Plus, I have pretty atypical upper body training -- I do a regular amount of push ups, both on the ground and on rings. And I do press pretty regularly, using lot of different exercises -- KB, Sots, and Klokov presses.

I do these because my shoulders are trash, high mileage -- without this extra assistance work, my shoulder tends to dislocate on snatches. Still does now and again. To prevent it, I really have to lock in my serratus.

I'm also a power jerker, which isn't common, as opposed to a split jerker, and squat less heavy, but pull heavier, than my peers.

The last time I benched was at a buddy's house during a BBQ in a classic "how much do you bench" moment. I said I don't know. His set only went up to 225 lb.

I did 9 reps, which isn't at all impressive for a 100 kg guy. Although maybe not horrible for my age and not training it.

I'm a bad example.
 
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Don Fairbanks said:
I participated in the combine in 86, before it was a thing. Most did not practice the drills before hand unless their agents were on the ball and had knowledge of the tests and had connections to trainers/coaches who could teach ways to increase test performance. Besides the 225 bench, I think there was a 185 bench for WR's and DB's. ? Yes, there has been debate about this test for decades. One reason the test has lasted is that it is generally safe. Trying not to get anyone hurt at this stage is a factor.
Click to expand...

Was it televised back then?
 
John Grahill said:
Some of these guys just excell at anything physical. I said it once before and I'm sure @watchnerd can attest as a former D1 player, these guys are natural athletes! When you look at a heavyset O lineman and look at his athletic background many are surprised that he was an all state basketball and/or baseball player "back in the day"..... Same can be said of elite military operators.
Click to expand...

Yeah, they're genetic freaks.

And they're both bigger and more athletic than they used to be.

These days, I'm about the size of a typical running back or QB; Russell Wilson and I are the same height, similar weights. But I'm way too small to play on the o-line like I did 30 years ago.
 
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