Kettlebell Kettlebells and wrestling sttength

[Jamesjones]

Hi everyone

Does anyone else believe that kettlebell training can build a similar strength that wrestlers have? You know what I mean the weird, rugged strength.

Do they increase the tendon strength the same way wrestling would?

 

[Gravytrain]

I've done a lot of things to help me a better grappler. Nothing has worked as well as getting strong with KBs. Once I got close to the simple standard in S&S i felt like I gained a couple of years of experience when I grappled with my regular training partners.

Even on the other side of 50 grappling with younger people is never an issue. Either for conditioning or strength.

 

[Mike Torres]

It's been said that either subtracting 10 years or adding 20 lbs makes a blue belt a purple belt, etc. Rener Gracie calls it the Boyd Belt Principle. What are Jiu Jitsu "Boyd Belts"? - BJJ Mat Rat

I'd argue that improving your strength to weight ratio can go a long way to doing the same. And kettlebell strength is the best

 

[Diryan]

If you mean the kind of wrestlers who start under the age of 10 and train for high level competitions all their lives then no. If you didnt start under or around the age of 10 and trained like crazy to your 30s you will not get that kind of strenght. Those guys are on a league of their own. But yes you will get strong doing kettlebells.
But i dont know how you can measure it since wrestling and grappling strenght also comes from skill and proper body alignment. Ive grappled guys hell of a lot stronger then me in the gym but by aligning myself proplerly in the clinch etc im stronger in the mats..

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Just something to consider..

How strong of a grip would you have once you achieve timed simple? Timed sinister?

How much strength would you have if you can squat a pair of 32s for 10 reps?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Does anyone else believe that kettlebell training can build a similar strength that wrestlers have? You know what I mean the weird, rugged strength.

Do they increase the tendon strength the same way wrestling would?

Strength Training In General

Strength training with Kettlebells, Barbells, etc increases strength and connective tissue for any sport.

 

[Jamesjones]

Just something to consider..

How strong of a grip would you have once you achieve timed simple? Timed sinister?

How much strength would you have if you can squat a pair of 32s for 10 reps?

I would imagine stronger on the mat than someone who lifts for looks

 

[Kozushi]

S&S certainly did wonders for my judo.

 

[Jamesjones]

S&S certainly did wonders for my judo.

How so ?

 

[Slatersan]

S & S is the magic sweet spot for me in regard to strength and conditioning for bjj/grappling.

For years i went from either too much strength training and beating my body up from that or just training grappling with no strength training and getting hurt that way from being imbalanced.

S & S provides me the perfect amount of strength, power and conditioning without beating my joints up so much that i end up getting injured. I am able to train and progress continuously with out having to take time off to heal from an injury.

So I probably cant go and deadlift as much as i used to but that never really translated in to grappling for me. I am much stronger on the mats with S&S than i ever have been with powerlifting.

Also during the quarantine i cant imagine what id be doing without a kettlebell. I am using this time to focus on power (q+d) with some kettlebell strength movements after. Once the lockdown is over i will go back to working toward sinister.

 

[Kozushi]

How so ?

The swings give me the strength and endurance for all pulling movements which are essential to all judo movements standing and ground. The TGUs give me the strength and endurance for all pushing movements standing and ground.

Judo is a chaotic environment where lines of force are not going to be square like when you lift barbells in standard ways. S&S is also "chaotic" in the sense that the lines of force are not symmetrical, and are all over the place!

S&S is practical strength and endurance for judo. There is no question that S&S is helpful for kendo endurance and strength also, but kendo is a different thing.

 

[Kozushi]

I would imagine stronger on the mat than someone who lifts for looks

Depends. The lifting for looks guys can be very strong too as long as they know how to use their strength. The same goes for "traditional" barbell etc lifters. I know some (like dozens of guys I train with who also lift barbells traditionally) and their strength is crushing provided their judo skills are also good. Without their judo skills being good, they are easy to control like anyone else without skill.
My own vues on S&S versus traditional barbell for judo is that it is just as effective overall, not less effective nor necessarily more effective. S&S gives you some things they don't have in terms of mobility and flexibility under resistance, but there is absolutely no question in my mind that they are stronger in an absolute sense. Judo is so ridiculously skill and sport-specific-strength dominated that no one has come up with anything like a "standard" weight lifting supplement to judo on-mat training. My coach (Olympic level fellow) recommends high pulls with the barbell at your own bodyweight.
BJJ is a bit different. I am not a jiu-jitsu practitioner but I have trained a fair bit with my jiu-jitsu friends and even participated in some tournaments. It resembles judo ground fighting in a great many ways including strength systems. Ground grappling is a great deal more strength dependent than standing judo. Wrestling is also a great deal more strength dependent than is standing judo.

 

[Jamesjones]

Depends. The lifting for looks guys can be very strong too as long as they know how to use their strength. The same goes for "traditional" barbell etc lifters. I know some (like dozens of guys I train with who also lift barbells traditionally) and their strength is crushing provided their judo skills are also good. Without their judo skills being good, they are easy to control like anyone else without skill.
My own vues on S&S versus traditional barbell for judo is that it is just as effective overall, not less effective nor necessarily more effective. S&S gives you some things they don't have in terms of mobility and flexibility under resistance, but there is absolutely no question in my mind that they are stronger in an absolute sense. Judo is so ridiculously skill and sport-specific-strength dominated that no one has come up with anything like a "standard" weight lifting supplement to judo on-mat training. My coach (Olympic level fellow) recommends high pulls with the barbell at your own bodyweight.
BJJ is a bit different. I am not a jiu-jitsu practitioner but I have trained a fair bit with my jiu-jitsu friends and even participated in some tournaments. It resembles judo ground fighting in a great many ways including strength systems. Ground grappling is a great deal more strength dependent than standing judo. Wrestling is also a great deal more strength dependent than is standing judo.

I think a combination of kettlebell training and barbell compound lifts would be more than sufficient my experience with judo is grip and posterior chain are the main things to strengthen for the sport all the other skills comes from regular training

 

[Jamesjones]

S & S is the magic sweet spot for me in regard to strength and conditioning for bjj/grappling.

For years i went from either too much strength training and beating my body up from that or just training grappling with no strength training and getting hurt that way from being imbalanced.

S & S provides me the perfect amount of strength, power and conditioning without beating my joints up so much that i end up getting injured. I am able to train and progress continuously with out having to take time off to heal from an injury.

So I probably cant go and deadlift as much as i used to but that never really translated in to grappling for me. I am much stronger on the mats with S&S than i ever have been with powerlifting.

Also during the quarantine i cant imagine what id be doing without a kettlebell. I am using this time to focus on power (q+d) with some kettlebell strength movements after. Once the lockdown is over i will go back to working toward sinister.

Thanks for your reply I hope your well and what would we do without kettlebells I found heavy squats deadlifts etc would really bash up my body for a few days after but the kettlebell is just really good to keep strong without the sore legs and aching back

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

For years i went from either too much strength training and beating my body up

Strength Training

A well written and perform Strength Training Program enhances Judo performance.

"Beating your body up" from Strength Training, any sport or activity is due to Overtraining: not allowing our body to recover..

The same applies to Kettlebell Training.

deadlift ... that never really translated in to grappling for me. I am much stronger on the mats with S&S than i ever have been with powerlifting.

Power

Judo is a Power Sport. The foundation of Power is build on Maximum Strength.

"Power = Force x Distance/Time

Since the terms force and strength are often used interchangeably and distance divided by time is the same thing as speed, power can more simply be defined as strength multiplied by speed. Therefore,

Strength x Speed = POWER.

Since strength and speed are components of power, increasing one while neglecting the other limits total power development. ... Because strength and speed have a multiplicative impact on power, athletes can make greater gains if they develop both components. For example, if an arbitrary strength score for an athlete was 2, and the athlete's arbitrary speed score also was 2, the hypothetical power rating would be:

2 x 2 = 4

Doubling strength without altering speed would double power:

4 x 2 = 8

If the same athlete made only a 50 percent gain in strength and an equal gain
in speed, the power rating would be:

3 x 3 = 9" (Brittenham, 1997)"
Source: Plyometric bench training for 1rm increases

Initially, increasing Strength translates to an increase in Power. However, at some point, Power Training needs to integrated in a program for maximizing Power.

The Deadlift

The Deadlift is primarily a Strength Training Movement. It or similar posterior chain exercise to the Deadlift are necessary for increasing Power.

Personal Note

I am a Powerlfiter. I spent two years in Judo.

Due to my Deadlift Strength, I was able to overpower some Brown Belts and a few Black Belts had a hard time with me.

A Pulling Sport

Also, Judo is reliant more on Pulling Movements. The Deadlift is a Strength Pulling Movement.

Kettlebell Swings are a great Power Movement for the posterior chain; rather than a Strength Training Movement.

Kettlebell Swing will increase Strength to some degree. However, not to the same degree that a Deadlift or similar posterior chain movement will.

Summary

To optimize Power in Judo, any sport, some Strength Training is necessary.

 

[Slatersan]

Strength Training

A well written and perform Strength Training Program enhances Judo performance.

"Beating your body up" from Strength Training, any sport or activity is due to Overtraining: not allowing our body to recover..

The same applies to Kettlebell Training.



Power

Judo is a Power Sport. The foundation of Power is build on Maximum Strength.

"Power = Force x Distance/Time

Since the terms force and strength are often used interchangeably and distance divided by time is the same thing as speed, power can more simply be defined as strength multiplied by speed. Therefore,

Strength x Speed = POWER.

Since strength and speed are components of power, increasing one while neglecting the other limits total power development. ... Because strength and speed have a multiplicative impact on power, athletes can make greater gains if they develop both components. For example, if an arbitrary strength score for an athlete was 2, and the athlete's arbitrary speed score also was 2, the hypothetical power rating would be:

2 x 2 = 4

Doubling strength without altering speed would double power:

4 x 2 = 8

If the same athlete made only a 50 percent gain in strength and an equal gain
in speed, the power rating would be:

3 x 3 = 9" (Brittenham, 1997)"
Source: Plyometric bench training for 1rm increases

Initially, increasing Strength translates to an increase in Power. However, at some point, Power Training needs to integrated in a program for maximizing Power.

The Deadlift

The Deadlift is primarily a Strength Training Movement. It or similar posterior chain exercise to the Deadlift are necessary for increasing Power.

Personal Note

I am a Powerlfiter. I spent two years in Judo.

Due to my Deadlift Strength, I was able to overpower some Brown Belts and a few Black Belts had a hard time with me.

A Pulling Sport

Also, Judo is reliant more on Pulling Movements. The Deadlift is a Strength Pulling Movement.

Kettlebell Swings are a great Power Movement for the posterior chain; rather than a Strength Training Movement.

Kettlebell Swing will increase Strength to some degree. However, not to the same degree that a Deadlift or similar posterior chain movement will.

Summary

To optimize Power in Judo, any sport, some Strength Training is necessary.

I said “too much strength training” beat my body up not “strength training beats up my body”.

Not sure why you quoted what I said then took out the part to make it seem like I was saying there is something wrong with doing deadlifts. I said I can’t deadlift as much as I used to but being as strong as i possibly can in the deadlift didn’t crossover in to my bjj training.

?‍

 

[Kozushi]

I think a combination of kettlebell training and barbell compound lifts would be more than sufficient my experience with judo is grip and posterior chain are the main things to strengthen for the sport all the other skills comes from regular training

What you write seems to jive exactly with my coach's opinion. He says it's pretty much just the high pulls with the barbell set at your own bodyweight that really add anything to your judo.
Of course, I don't do these as I do S&S. However, my coach, who is Olympic level and all calls me "very strong" which is not something he calls many of us training under him.
Unfortunately, being strong is not enough to be actually good at judo.

 

[Kozushi]

Strength Training

A well written and perform Strength Training Program enhances Judo performance.

"Beating your body up" from Strength Training, any sport or activity is due to Overtraining: not allowing our body to recover..

The same applies to Kettlebell Training.



Power

Judo is a Power Sport. The foundation of Power is build on Maximum Strength.

"Power = Force x Distance/Time

Since the terms force and strength are often used interchangeably and distance divided by time is the same thing as speed, power can more simply be defined as strength multiplied by speed. Therefore,

Strength x Speed = POWER.

Since strength and speed are components of power, increasing one while neglecting the other limits total power development. ... Because strength and speed have a multiplicative impact on power, athletes can make greater gains if they develop both components. For example, if an arbitrary strength score for an athlete was 2, and the athlete's arbitrary speed score also was 2, the hypothetical power rating would be:

2 x 2 = 4

Doubling strength without altering speed would double power:

4 x 2 = 8

If the same athlete made only a 50 percent gain in strength and an equal gain
in speed, the power rating would be:

3 x 3 = 9" (Brittenham, 1997)"
Source: Plyometric bench training for 1rm increases

Initially, increasing Strength translates to an increase in Power. However, at some point, Power Training needs to integrated in a program for maximizing Power.

The Deadlift

The Deadlift is primarily a Strength Training Movement. It or similar posterior chain exercise to the Deadlift are necessary for increasing Power.

Personal Note

I am a Powerlfiter. I spent two years in Judo.

Due to my Deadlift Strength, I was able to overpower some Brown Belts and a few Black Belts had a hard time with me.

A Pulling Sport

Also, Judo is reliant more on Pulling Movements. The Deadlift is a Strength Pulling Movement.

Kettlebell Swings are a great Power Movement for the posterior chain; rather than a Strength Training Movement.

Kettlebell Swing will increase Strength to some degree. However, not to the same degree that a Deadlift or similar posterior chain movement will.

Summary

To optimize Power in Judo, any sport, some Strength Training is necessary.

WOW! This all targets exactly my sport!
What you write jives perfectly with my experience following a few different SF programmes (S&S is the one I've really spent the most time with however) over the years while training judo. The heavier the weight training even if it was slower weight training (like barbell deadlifts and presses for example) the more I could control the opponent and the more often I could score. When I backed off on the barbell stuff, I certainly lost the ability to actually score reliably with a number of throws I had gotten in the habit of using.
Another thing I think I noticed was that when I was doing my swings as 2 handed with the 40kg, I was more "judo strong" than doing the normal S&S 1 armed swings with the 32kg. I suppose this ought to stand to reason as 100 2-handed swings doesn't give half of your body a rest half the time the way the 1 arm swings do, and the body is learning to work more as one big pendulum rather than cutting the strength system in sort of half.
This all feeds into why I see my S&S journey as a separate pursuit from judo now. S&S incidentally contributes to judo strength in some ways, but like you well explained above, if I were to be doing my weights mainly as an aid to my judo I would be focussing my attention on lifting much heavier weights!
Still, after having been demolished repeatedly by an actual professional full time judo competitor who trained with us for two years who is only 2/3 my weight, and knowing through training together that I am physically much stronger and heavier, I came to appreciate the enormous role that skill plays in judo, which also helped open my eyes to this fact in fencing (kendo) also. I used to think that the great judo competitors were mainly just very conditioned and strong, but I've witnessed one on one with a small pro that the skills and tactics and just raw experience on the mat take the game way farther than I could ever or even still really imagine.

 

[Kozushi]

I said “too much strength training” beat my body up not “strength training beats up my body”.

Not sure why you quoted what I said then took out the part to make it seem like I was saying there is something wrong with doing deadlifts. I said I can’t deadlift as much as I used to but being as strong as i possibly can in the deadlift didn’t crossover in to my bjj training.

?‍

The TGU seems to be popular in BJJ circles.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I said “too much strength training” beat my body up not “strength training beats up my body”.

Too Much Strength Training

The point is that no matter the exercise or sport, too much training leads to Overtraining.

A well planned and perform Periodization Training Program is the key to progressively increasing Strength.