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Kettlebell Kettlebells for conditioning ?

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Anders

Anders

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Some weeks ago I was hiking some mountains with some friends and found out that their walking speed in the mountains surpassed mine. This got me interested in increasing my own conditioning.

If I want to be able to hike mountains quicker and more easily than now, what would be the best way of doing that ? Hiking mountains would of course be an option, but I am not living in an area where there are many mountains and I also think that hiking two or three times a week in the mountains would not be good for me knees.

So the choice is really between a stationary bike and using kettlebells. Do you think using a kettlebell program such as The One from Neupert, or the conditioning part of ROP, could increase my capacity to hike mountains easily and bicycle easily with my friends, or do I need to start running or using a stationary bike to achieve this ?

What is people´s experience with this ? Have anyone of you achieved really good longdistance conditioning simply by doing kettlebells ?

I would be grateful for all answers :)
 
While I don't do anything in the long distance range I have certainly noticed a large increase in my conditioning for sports (Softball/Volleyball/Kickball leagues) by doing S&S for the last 5-6 months. I have been keeping up with teammates in their 20's (I'm 38) and the only conditioning I do is S&S and the occasional bike ride. Also the teammates I have that are my age, are always complaining about being sore after a league night. 5 minutes after a game is over I'm ready to go again and, not sore at all in the morning.
An apple and, 100 swings a day keeps old age and, the doctor away it feels like! haha
 
Anders...
I have spent a great deal of time in the mountains over the years. The best preparation bar none is putting in time in the mountains. There really is no substitute. It of course depends a bit on what you mean by 'hiking in the mountains' of course.

However....

Currently (and unfortunately) I happen to live in an area completely devoid of mountains, yet I still go and seriously play in them each year.
These days this is what I do, more or less... (In no particular order)
  • Ruck Marching (which is really just a fancy way of saying hiking with a pack)
  • Trail running (Mostly MAF)
  • Box steps. (Get a 12" box, put on a pack, step up...step down... Boring as all get out, and soul stealing... Do 1,000' or more...let me know what you think)
  • S&S
  • Cycling (road,Mtn,cross)
 
Anders said:
Do you think using a kettlebell program such as The One from Neupert, or the conditioning part of ROP, could increase my capacity to hike mountains easily and bicycle easily with my friends, or do I need to start running or using a stationary bike to achieve this ?
Click to expand...
The conditioning part of the ROP has been superseded, IMHO, by the ways swings are to be done in S&S - it's well worth your time to read if you haven't already.

How much a generalist program like S&S will help with a specific activity is variable and based on both the individual and the activity. A big question is - you're asking about a new program, but what is your current program? What have you been doing that hasn't enabled you to keep up with your friends hiking in the mountains?

-S-
 
Between kettlebells and a stationary bike is no contest. I do a fair amount of backpacking and as I get older I am still able to hike in with 70+ lbs on my back. Don't get me wrong, it feels quite heavy but I can still do it for a bunch of miles. At 180lbs and 48 years old (49 end of month) if all I did was stationary bike I'd need help just putting on a pack that heavy.

I do not know how it would translate to pacing - if you couldn't keep up because your natural stride is slower/shorter and not because of conditioning, then being stronger and having more endurance won't really help. The load you're carrying, use of a walking stick, even footwear choice will all have an effect.

That said, and despite all the documentation re specificity of training, I have noticed a lot of carryover improvement from kettlebell work in other activities like hiking, paddling a canoe, even swimming I feel like a lot stronger swimmer than I did 20 years ago when I was heavy into traditional bodybuilding style weight training or doing a ton of jump-rope conditioning.

For hiking I'd also mix in some sandbag work. Goblet squats, front squats, swings, 1 leg deadlifts will all improve your carriage under load and presumably a big boost in conditioning for this activity. When you find yourself walking more with your glutes and less by dropping with gravity you'll really appreciate how KB training injects a little more power into everyday practical movement patterns. The stationary bike might come in handy for a warmup, but unless you plan on improving your riding it isn't a good choice IMHO.
 
I love KB's for their versatility - one small tool can be used for strength, conditioning and hypertrophy.

They do all of those things well, but are not the optimal choice for any of them. You certainly can improve conditioning with Kettlebells, but other modalities might get you to the goal quicker - especially if you are inexperienced with kettlebells. The best modality is almost 100% of the time going to mimic the activity you want to improve - (ie; want to run faster/further, you should probably run)

If you want to get better in the mountains, offwidth's advice of rucking and trail running should probably be the core of your training. You can absolutely enhance that with KB training (stronger is ALWAYS better) , but KB training alone isn't going to produce the BEST result.

Edit - just realized that @Steve Freides just said what I was trying to say so much better than I did. :) Thank you, sir.
 
The "One" program is 10 minutes long. The conditioning portion of the ROP is at most 12 minutes long. There is no way either will prepare of to hike in the mountains. They can be PART of a program. You will need to do more aerobic base work. This is great advice:

offwidth said:
Currently (and unfortunately) I happen to live in an area completely devoid of mountains, yet I still go and seriously play in them each year.
These days this is what I do, more or less... (In no particular order)
  • Ruck Marching (which is really just a fancy way of saying hiking with a pack)
  • Trail running (Mostly MAF)
  • Box steps. (Get a 12" box, put on a pack, step up...step down... Boring as all get out, and soul stealing... Do 1,000' or more...let me know what you think)
  • S&S
  • Cycling (road,Mtn,cross)
Click to expand...

I did 60 minutes of walking up and down my basement stairs for awhile. As offwidth said, it is mind numbingly boring, but it works.
 
Hello, just 2 quick cents! My vote is S&S with some long walking, potentially loaded. Stationary bike could potentially increase cardio-respitory function, where as S&S will help with cardio-resp, but most importantly, if you follow the progression in S&S you will get stronger! Strong first...as they say. If you go from a 16kg to a 24kg or to the 32kg simple standard, there is no way you can tell me that you won't hike faster/better. Call it the what-the-hell effect if you want, plain and simply, you will be stronger! Strongfirst!
Now, if the guys youre hiking with are rocking the Sinister standard....
 
This is of particular interest to me as I have spent many years trying to find the best way to get in "mountain shape". This is pretty much in line with what offwidth said in his post.

In order of the best way to get it done:
1. Hike hills or mountains
2. Climb stairs, up and down
3. Box steps
4. Climbing hills on a bike
5. Rucking on flat ground

I would strongly suggest 1 and 2 before anything else, 3, 4 and 5 should be last resorts if the first two are not an option.

Nothing else duplicates it, nothing. Not swimming, not bike riding (with the exception of climbing hills on a bike), not cross country skiing nor running. Climbing a trail uses a very particular set of muscles that can't be replicated with any other exercise.

Use your MAF formula for most of your work, you should be able to talk while hiking/training.

It will take a couple months to see significant changes, stick with it and be consistent.

Don't slack off in the off season, this is a huge mistake I made multiple years.

Training is cumulative, but you also need at least one long session per week. This isn't just to get your endurance up, it's also to toughen your feet and legs.

Do not exceed 40 pounds on any packs, rucks or weighted box step sessions or stair climbs, there is no point in it, more is not better here. Even with 40 pounds, work up to this weight slowly, think months, not weeks.

Be exceedingly careful on how much weight you use on box steps, the step down backwards is not a natural movement. I tore my calf muscles in my left leg last week by "going heavy" on this and it was only 143 pounds on the bar. Think rubber band being pulled until it breaks and yes it hurt like hell.

Al's A+A protocols are a nice addition.

Having blown up an Achilles tendon and calf muscles, I can pretty much attest to what NOT to do.
 
Thanks for all the replies :)

Offwidth: I will definately try the box stepping, and also try to do it with a back pack on, or maybe a weighted west. The box I have now reached to a point just beneath my knees, maybe that is good enough.

***

@Steve Freides: My currect goals are to be able to do a one arm push up, and to do power wheel roll out from my toes.

My current workouts are a bit like this:

Power-wheel roll out 5*5 (two-three times a week)
Archer push-ups (1,2,3)3 two-three times a week)
Swing S & S style with 32 kilos (two-three times a week) (I spend 15 minutes doing it, progressing slowly)
Pistol squat with 8 kilos. ( 1 til two times a week)
Pull-ups with 15 kilos (2-3 times a week.
Clean and press doing it the Right of passage way. I have started to use the 24 kilo for the repetitions.


I also train krav maga 2-3 times a week, but it is not that demanding.

I am 6 feet and 2 inches. I weigh 190 pounds. If I could loose 16 pounds I would probably have a six-pack.

***
@North-coast miller: Maybe I will try those sandbag works, sounds interesting.

***
@advtracer: Hm. yes, maybe doing S & S more times a week could help, but since power wheel roll out and one arm push ups are my current goals, I would like to first achieve these goals before I start doing another program.
 
Darren Best said:
This is of particular interest to me as I have spent many years trying to find the best way to get in "mountain shape". This is pretty much in line with what offwidth said in his post.

In order of the best way to get it done:
1. Hike hills or mountains
2. Climb stairs, up and down
3. Box steps
4. Climbing hills on a bike
5. Rucking on flat ground

I would strongly suggest 1 and 2 before anything else, 3, 4 and 5 should be last resorts if the first two are not an option.

Nothing else duplicates it, nothing. Not swimming, not bike riding (with the exception of climbing hills on a bike), not cross country skiing nor running. Climbing a trail uses a very particular set of muscles that can't be replicated with any other exercise.

Use your MAF formula for most of your work, you should be able to talk while hiking/training.

It will take a couple months to see significant changes, stick with it and be consistent.

Don't slack off in the off season, this is a huge mistake I made multiple years.

Training is cumulative, but you also need at least one long session per week. This isn't just to get your endurance up, it's also to toughen your feet and legs.

Do not exceed 40 pounds on any packs, rucks or weighted box step sessions or stair climbs, there is no point in it, more is not better here. Even with 40 pounds, work up to this weight slowly, think months, not weeks.

Be exceedingly careful on how much weight you use on box steps, the step down backwards is not a natural movement. I tore my calf muscles in my left leg last week by "going heavy" on this and it was only 143 pounds on the bar. Think rubber band being pulled until it breaks and yes it hurt like hell.

Al's A+A protocols are a nice addition.

Having blown up an Achilles tendon and calf muscles, I can pretty much attest to what NOT to do.
Click to expand...
@Darren Best and I obviously think quite a bit alike...no doubt born from years of similar experience. (it also appears that we own the same cat)
 
I'll add my $.02 for what it's worth. This past July I completed the Spartan Suoer in Pennsylvania. I'm 47 years old and in all around good shape for my age but by no means an elite racer--not even close. Other than the initial fun up the first hill (the course is really a ski resort) the "running" portion of the race was three ever-increasing-in-difficulty upward marches followed by a downhill "run." This is an addition to all the obstacles. I never had to stop on my upward treks. I routinely passed by younger and more "fit" appearing people than myself hands on knees hunched over gasping. I dint do any traditional running to prepare for the race since I knew it was mountainous. All I did was S&S for the most part. I'm still using 24 for swings and at the time 24 and 28 for the TGUs. I'm convinced it made an impact.
 
I dabble in some Spartan racing as well, (and like Chris F. not at an elite level) and I also find that S&S is a great way to prepare. But even a hilly course like Pennsylvania doesn't compare to a big day in the mountains with a pack.
 
offwidth said:
The best preparation bar none is putting in time in the mountains. There really is no substitute. It of course depends a bit on what you mean by 'hiking in the mountains' of course.
Click to expand...

PatrickW said:
There is no way either will prepare of to hike in the mountains. They can be PART of a program. You will need to do more aerobic base work.
Click to expand...

Darren Best said:
Nothing else duplicates it, nothing. Not swimming, not bike riding (with the exception of climbing hills on a bike), not cross country skiing nor running. Climbing a trail uses a very particular set of muscles that can't be replicated with any other exercise.
Click to expand...

This discussion really ends with the above.

If you cant get to the mountains to train, the altitude alone will slow you way down. You will just have to accept this.

Hiking frequently is not bad for your knees unless you have a preexisting condition and/or are too intense in your training.

It is a common fallacy to believe that ~10min of high intensity training alone will prepare you for enduring events.

@Chris F. the collective anecdotes of this type contributes to this fallacy in belief.
 
I've been following this thread with interest. Like others, I don't have mountains to train in. Here in Minnesota we barely have hills. But while on vacation when I have a rare opportunity to get on a mountain trail I'd like to be able to make the most of it.
 
aciampa said:
If you cant get to the mountains to train, the altitude alone will slow you way down. You will just have to accept this.
Click to expand...
Al, the Patrick McKeown book I've recommended here specifically addresses this. I can't say whether it would make a difference performing at altitude, but he says it can duplicate the effects of altitude training for sea-level athletes (or words to that effect) - a similar but different thing.

-S-
 
There's altitude and there's altitude, and we probably have strayed pretty far from Anders original question. But nonetheless it is an interesting topic (at least to me :)), all of the posters have made good points. There is a somewhat related thread elsewhere that goes into 'altitude masks'. Acclimation to altitude is a pretty complicated topic. There are many variables to consider. The ability to pre-acclimate is another topic altogether. For those interested, chapter 12 of 'Training for the New Alpinism' (House|Johnston) provides a reasonably well written discussion of the topic. This book was brought up in another thread sometime back. I would highly recommend any serious mountain athletes to at least give it a read.

Steve House for those that don't know, is one of the cutting edge alpinists in the world. Highly respected, with an amazing resume.
Scott Johnston is also a climber and coach of some Olympic class cross-country ski racers.

Granted... The book is discussing training for world class ascents, sometimes at very high elevations (6,000m - 8,000m) the principles still remain the same for lower elevations and for people of more modest skills.

On page 345...

"Can you pre-acclimate at your low-elevation home? The short answer to that question is no, almost certainly not"

However the book goes on to describe a long answer that is "more interesting". It discusses Intermittent Hypoxic Exposure (IHE), breathing exercises, and the central governor theory.

I guess I've probably rambled on long enough on the topic. I should probably go do some S&S.
 
I started S&S again back in March. I wanted something that would add to my aerobic endurance that I didn't have to be on my feet a lot for. My ankle still wasn't fully healed from my boneheaded training session a couple years back.

I worked up to the 24kg pretty fast because I had done S&S before. By June I was on the 32 and doing pretty well. Late July I switched over to Al's lazy endurance + LSD protocol, which was 3 A+A sessions a week and a long hike once a week. Right near the end of the six week cycle I went on a hike with some friends, nothing serious, 1500' gain in 2 miles topping out at 5600' elevation. Mind you the trail wasn't one steady climb, it had sections that were pretty easy and others that were pretty steep.

It wasn't enough. Considering the amount of training time I had put in since March most people would think I would of done pretty well. I know for a fact if I had spent five months working base endurance three times a week I would of done a lot better than I did. Now mind you I couldn't put in the time on my feet that I needed to because of my ankle. If it had been capable of handling the abuse I would of structured my training differently.

One thing though I noticed was my recovery was amazingly fast because of the kettlebell and A+A work. Each time I had to stop I had my wind back in just a minute or two. Also when the hike was over three hours later, I could of turned right around and done it again, I wasn't even tired.

Here is a very interesting article written by Mark Twight, it's also in the book "Training For The New Alpinism", by Steve House and Scott Johnston.
No Free Lunch

Mark talks about his efforts at looking for a "free lunch", using interval style training to train base endurance.

P.S. @offwidth, Gizmo is my training buddy. :)
 
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